Author Topic: Substantial Action Out of Turn: How to treat the skipped hand  (Read 5190 times)

MikeB

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Received the following question by e-mail, reposting below. Subject relates to how to treat the hand of a player skipped by substantial action out of turn (2013 Rules, #38-B). Opinions and rationale welcome:

Hello,

I have a question about the Illustration Addendum rule 38. In example 1 & 2 at the end it says the floor will be called and make a decision about the skipped player. I want to know what will hapen with the hand of a skipped player if there has be binding action?

What will the floorman decide in example 1 and 2 or what is the best decision to make?

Greetings,
Name withheld


The referenced Illustration Addendum can be found starting on page 12 of the 2013 Rules, longform PDF here:
http://www.pokertda.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Poker_TDA_Rules_2013_Version_1.1_Final_longform_PDF.pdf
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 08:33:25 AM by MikeB »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Substantial Action Out of Turn: How to treat the skipped hand
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2015, 12:42:19 PM »
How I have handled this is that if a player allows binding action to take place after him without speaking up in a reasonable time period then he will forfeit his right to take an aggressive action; meaning he may call or fold but only if the next card has not been delivered. 

Furthermore, if the next card has been dealt (community card in flop games, or up-card/down-card in stud) then they player's hand is dead unless governed by the early burn-and-turn rule.

Time it would be dead: Player A bets $50, B does nothing, C calls, D calls, dealer announces "3 players," taps table, delivers next card. Dead because he needed to put in money the first time it came to his action, he did not, then remaining action was bound in place.

Time it would be "early burn-and-turn:" A checks, B does nothing, C bets $50, D calls $50, A calls $50, dealer delivers next card.  Not a dead hand because B's first action would be automatically ruled a check by allowing the action to take place but by the time action comes around to him he is acting in turn again but didn't get a chance to act on the re-opened action.

Nick C

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Re: Substantial Action Out of Turn: How to treat the skipped hand
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2015, 05:09:33 PM »
Brian,
 For a minute I actually thought we were going to agree on something. I was with you 100% until your last example: Early burn and turn? Will you explain?

Nick C

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Re: Substantial Action Out of Turn: How to treat the skipped hand
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2015, 06:16:34 AM »
Brian,
 Upon further review, I think I'm beginning to follow your last reply. I also agree that the skipped player (Player B) should not have a dead hand. My next question is: how do you handle the premature board?

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Substantial Action Out of Turn: How to treat the skipped hand
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2015, 03:39:29 AM »
Substantial action behind = dead hand.

The end.
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

Nick C

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Re: Substantial Action Out of Turn: How to treat the skipped hand
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2015, 06:53:30 AM »
Thomas:

 Read Brian's example again. Player B needs the chance to act before the dealer burns and turns. I had the same reaction as you when I first read it. It would be Player B's turn to call the 50. I don't agree with the verbiage but I believe Player B has a right to call or fold before the dealer continues. I don't see this any different than a situation where; Player A bets 50, Player B calls 50, Player C calls 50 and before Player D has a chance to act, the dealer prematurely burns and turns. There is no substantial action behind...only a player being "missed" by the dealer.

 Player D's hand is live and the board must be re-dealt.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 06:55:57 AM by Nick C »