POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Suggestions for new TDA rules and amendments to existing rules READ-ONLY ARCHIVES Pre-2015 Summit

Substantial action: How should it be defined?

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WSOPMcGee:

--- Quote from: Nick C on May 13, 2015, 06:10:52 AM ---Gentlemen:

 In regards to Substantial Action...At the 2011 Summit the rule that was decided was NOT the current rule.

 http://www.pokertda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Poker_TDA_Rules_2011_Version_1.0_Handout_docx_redline_changes.pdf

 If you go to the TDA Summit 2011 Day 2 you will hear Matt Savage clarify what we decided the day before. There are other treads from way back (2011) that covered this error. As Thomas stated, somewhere between Versions 1 & 2, it got changed. You can listen to Matt on Day 2 about 8:30 into the discussion. Here it is: 2011 TDA Summit Day 2 - Voting Day

One other note: A fold and a call would only pertain to pre-flop...


--- End quote ---
Thanks for the video Nick.

At 8:28 - Matt states: Substantial action is 3 checks or 2 actions with chips
At 8:50 - TDA audience member asks if a fold would be considered an action with chips or a check
At 8:58 - Matt responds: A Fold is not and action with chips, so an action with chips would be Bet, Call.

This is Day 2... the voting day. Video link is above in Nick's comments

Prior to that 2011 TDA Summit Day 1 - Issue Day

The topic of Substantial Action is begins at 1:54:00 during the topic of Rule #27 Misdeals. It appears that the board is in favor of a universal 3 actions across the board and there's some debate as to whether two actions is enough to constitute substantial action and Dave Lamb asks the audience members to give reasons for advocating 2 actions vs 3 actions.

At 2:04:00 I address the board and advocate 2 actions involving chips or 3 actions (checks, folds etc), meaning 2 players putting chips in the pot in turn and seemingly persuade the board and audience with my language of the rule, as the next audience member reiterates what I said. During the address even Dave says "You are now rewriting the World Series rule for.... "
At 2:06:00 Dave asks how many are in favor of adopting the WSOP Policy.

Unfortunately the WSOP policy and what I'm advocating are slightly different.

At 2:09:45 - Matt fields an audience question.
At 2:09:58 - Jan says it has to be 2 actions with chips. 3 actions or 2 involving chips.

I can see where the confusing is coming from Mike B because of the WSOP language of "A bet and a fold" as being 2 actions involving chips.

To clarify for the advocacy of a language change it is better said: 2 actions in turn that commit chips to the pot or 3 total actions.

Simple and easy to understand.

Brian Vickers:
I always thought a call and a fold was not significant enough.  I have gone along but don't agree with the current iteration of the rule. 
My preferred version of the rule would be:

"Substantial action has occured when one of the following two circumstances have taken place: A)Two players have voluntarily put chips into the pot (i.e. calling, betting or raising) or three total players have acted (i.e. call, fold, fold or check,check, check)"

Or alternately:
"Substantial actions is defined as: A) Two actions which both involve voluntarily putting chips into the pot or B) Three total actions of any kind"

Nick C:
Brian: That's what I thought it was after the 2011 Summit.

Guillaume Gleize:
TY guys. OK I feel less alone.

Because there is actually some confused interpretation from the TDA members themselves, I will now define Sub Action as "3 actions or 2 involving chips" (so no check and no fold). Doing this I KNOW MY RULE WON'T FOLLOW THE EXACT 2015 TDA ENGLISH TEXT and I'm not happy of that but I will do it until some meeting day (next one?) a CLEAR MAJORITY of the member vote for ANY CHOICE witch I will follow whatever it is! I just hope they won't agree for a check or a fold in those 2 actions ... Way too fast for me who would even dream for 3 ACTIONS WHATEVER!  :D

GG

Nick C:
I agree with you but your example of "check" "fold" is not a good one. The question is: any three actions (for sure) or two actions (both) involving chips...or, two actions (one) involving chips and the other any action, fold, call or raise.

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