Author Topic: Mucking a split  (Read 14821 times)

Brian Vickers

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2015, 11:25:37 AM »
The rule might state otherwise but it should be a split.


There's a specific rule for this that says he HAS to show his hand to get part of the pot, and if we don't follow that rule there's a legitimate claim to the Gaming Commision.  My opinion is: enforce the rule as written or lobby for it's change. 

My personal opinion: I agree with the rules as written on this matter.  A player who has laid no claim for a pot should not have his hand held through the rules of the game.  What about all the times a player has shown one card and mucked the other?  He doesn't get the pot either because he didn't follow the rule that says he needed to show both. 

D.C.

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2015, 11:37:55 AM »
Hello guys,

I'm sorry but I can't agree with the argument that the players should be protected from making a mistake.
The reason people are better or worse at competitions is because better players have skills that make their results superior. In athletic sports it might be strength or speed, but in mental or mind games like poker it is the ability to make calculations, recognize patterns and, amongst many more, be alert and observant.

When we table all hands during an all-in situation it is because that is hen the risk of a collusion is the greatest and because the player's tournament life is at stake. Therefore, we - as TDs - understand that we should table all hands so that we don't kick out or reward a player by mistake.

On all other situations, the risk of collusion will always exist, and people that want to collude will exploit a wide array of scenarios - the ability to muck at showdown being only one of them. So, I do believe that we still need to protect the all-in showdown and should not care about "preventing" a player from misinterpreting the board. IMO, the threat of elimination or doubling up a player by mistake is far worst than someone misreading the board.

Food for thought: https://youtu.be/UKBKoSyTEAE - Should they have prevented Ivey from mucking the winning hand? Should WSOP have given the chips to Ivey? Is really that the purpose of a TD? Is that being fair?

I don't think so.

All the best,
DC
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Spence

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2015, 11:41:45 AM »
On all other situations, the risk of collusion will always exist, and people that want to collude will exploit a wide array of scenarios - the ability to muck at showdown being only one of them. So, I do believe that we still need to protect the all-in showdown and should not care about "preventing" a player from misinterpreting the board. IMO, the threat of elimination or doubling up a player by mistake is far worst than someone misreading the board.
You make a good point here but we should still be protecting the integrity of the tournament.  Any chips that are gotten in ways that don't explicitly follow the rules can have a drastic impact on the results of the tournament and should be avoided at all costs.

D.C.

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2015, 11:56:43 AM »

You make a good point here but we should still be protecting the integrity of the tournament.  Any chips that are gotten in ways that don't explicitly follow the rules can have a drastic impact on the results of the tournament and should be avoided at all costs.

Spence,

Yes. It is our job to protect the integrity of the tournament and we'll do our best to achieve it.

However, perfect protection is impossible in all forms of competitions or sports. Referees will make wrong calls, external factors will come in play (https://youtu.be/0uXZ3_A2nGs ), players will make dumb mistakes.

IMO, when a player that mucks a hand and does not receive chips he would have been given had he paid more attention, is not changing the result of a hand.

The result of that hand is that there is only one hand, that hand was tabled and wins the pot. Period.

If you alert that player he is about to make a mistake, make him table his cards and give him half the pot that would have gone to the alert and attentive player, now you're changing the result of the hand, now you're giving chips to someone that shouldn't have earned them and now you're being unfair, at least, in my personal definition of fairness.

Good positive discussion, by the way, folks :-)
DC
Devanir "D.C." Campos
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Nick C

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2015, 12:27:26 PM »
D.C.:

 You've got to be kidding. We're not talking about a player that fails to realize that he has a straight and doesn't call a bet...we're talking about a player that put his chips in the pot and is in for all bets. I'm with Spence on this one, and that's the card room I want to play in. It goes back to those arguments about the right to see a called hand. We still haven't figured that one out!

D.C.

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2015, 12:59:00 PM »
We're not talking about a player that fails to realize that he has a straight and doesn't call a bet...

What?? We're exactly talking about a player that didn't realize he had a straight and mucked his hand :-) This is exactly what the original poster wrote.

The fact that he had a straight playing all 5 board cards is irrelevant. When you play texas holdem you end up having 7 cards to make your best 5-card hand possible.

The relevant fact is he misread the board and misinterpreted his hand, and you want to award him chips for that.

I am goint to describe this situation in other words: if, in the original poster's example, you give any chips to the player that mucked cards (B) you're basically saying that player B needs to be protected from a mistake caused solely by his own personal lack of attention,  if a situation arises in which player A, on the showdown, does not hold cards that would make a 5-card hand combination better than the five cards on the board, therefore, making him use the board cards as his hand and, in conclusion, leading the hand to a split.
Devanir "D.C." Campos
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Brian Vickers

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2015, 02:32:56 PM »
You make a good point here but we should still be protecting the integrity of the tournament.  Any chips that are gotten in ways that don't explicitly follow the rules can have a drastic impact on the results of the tournament and should be avoided at all costs.

The explicit rules of the tournament state that if the player mucks his hand in this scenario that he doesn't win any chips.  If we push him half the pot we will have given him chips in a way that does not explicitly follow the rules of the tournament.  If we interfere, then we are having an impact on the results of the tournament.  We should avoid this at all costs. 

Poker is a game of skill and constant awareness, if a player doesn't table a hand he never gets part of a pot, this is an established rule in card rooms across the country.  We make players table their hands fully to ensure they didn't have a fouled hand, among other things. 
What if the other player only had one card in his hand or three cards in his hand?  We would never know he had a fouled hand because we didn't make him table his hand. 

I feel like this is my haymaker though: If a board reads 7-7-10-10-3 and Player A shows 2-2 which is counterfeited and he's playing the board and the other guy mucks are we gonna push the mucker any part of the pot?  Why not?  Unless he has 2-2 or 2-3 he would have won the entire pot.  Are you gonna push a guy who mucks his hand the entire pot?  Why would you only push him half if we don't know if he should have received half or all?

The correct answer is: you push him 0 because he didn't table his hand and he wasn't all-in and that's the rule.


WSOPMcGee

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2015, 05:28:54 PM »
Shouldn't argue with DC on this one. :-[

But you did anyways. Hahaha  :D
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Nick C

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2015, 05:59:32 PM »
Yeah, Thomas...and I'm not finished yet. ;D

Spence

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2015, 05:46:23 AM »
In a cash game the mucker gets nothing.  In a tourney it's our responsibility to ensure that the hand comes to it's proper conclusion. 

If the guy tabled and said I have a pair of kings we would still read the board as a straight.  The cards in the hand do not matter.  Only that the winning hand is on the board and the chips should be split.

Just to spice things up in an old card room I worked at you could call your hand as the board and it would play without opening but this was a CASH ONLY rule.  Collusion in cash has less significance because it is a closed universe. One hand does not effect any further hand because the number of chips in play can fluctuate.  In a tournament the number of chips will always stay the same (minus chip races or chips removed due to circumstances not related to the argument at hand) and each hand does effect the outcome of the rest until there is only one player left.

Nick C

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2015, 06:22:16 AM »
Spence,

 I don't know if there are others who agree with me on some of my opinions, it's hard to tell. If there are, for the most part, they prefer to remain silent. I will say this...it's great when someone like you speaks up, especially when we agree! 8) ;)

Spence

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Re: Mucking a split
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2015, 06:45:35 AM »
Well Nick at least there's two of us for the integrity of the tournament.  As for everyone else...

Yep, those are fighting words!  ;D