Author Topic: Acting in turn/ undecalls  (Read 5900 times)

deagian

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Acting in turn/ undecalls
« on: January 05, 2015, 03:04:17 PM »
Dear all,
i have a question about tournament.
full ring blinds sm 500 bb 1000.
player A raise  3k player b moved all in 15k player c put one chip of 5k without say call and  still all the table to act.
so what is your opinion?
the player must to call the all in or he can  fold and loose just the 5k?
thanks in advance

Nick C

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Re: Acting in turn/ undecalls
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2015, 06:06:43 PM »
deagian,

 TDA #37 states that: An under-call is a mandatory full call if facing an opening bet multiway on any betting round....It also allows us to use our own discretion. My decision would be based on a number of factors that need to be considered. The intent of the player, (based on history or experience). Did his under-call induce others to act? I am never in favor of forcing a player to win or lose more chips than they should. An honest mistake can occur. I have, on several occasions, opposed Accepted Action because of this.

 The rule states the player must complete the raise. At least that's the way it reads. I don't believe it to be in the best interest of the game, to always enforce the strict letter of the law...so, forcing the player to surrender his 5K is as far as I would go. TDA Rule #1.

deagian

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Re: Acting in turn/ undecalls
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2015, 06:49:17 PM »
hi Nick
it was a new player
IMO  the 5k needed to call the 3k so wasn't a reopening bet in that case,
and also  the dealer stopped the game and no one else acted 

Nick C

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Re: Acting in turn/ undecalls
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2015, 07:06:06 PM »
deagian,

 I like your decision. I do want to mention a slight correction that I'd like to see on many of these posts, that is: when explaining a raise situation, say Player A raises to 3K as opposed to raises 3k. The raises 3K could be considered a total of 4K.

 I like your decision to allow the "new" player to surrender the minimum here (3K). It's a good way to teach a new player to be careful before he acts. If he continues to make these mistakes, he deserves the more strict enforcement of the rules.

Good call.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 05:04:53 PM by Nick C »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: Acting in turn/ undecalls
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2015, 09:55:02 PM »
deagian,

 TDA #37 states that: An under-call is a mandatory full call if facing an opening bet multiway on any betting round....It also allows us to use our own discretion. My decision would be based on a number of factors that need to be considered. The intent of the player, (based on history or experience). Did his under-call induce others to act? I am never in favor of forcing a player to win or lose more chips than they should. An honest mistake can occur. I have, on several occasions, opposed Accepted Action because of this.

 The rule states the player must complete the raise. At least that's the way it reads. I don't believe it to be in the best interest of the game, to always enforce the strict letter of the law...so, forcing the player to surrender his 5K is as far as I would go. TDA Rule #1.
I have to admit I have not read the full new TDA rules and I get to read them piece by piece as they get written up about here in the forum. TDA Rule #37 is baffling to me. Just BAFFLING. I can't believe that it says that. Going to post about it in the future. That's a rule I will not enforce. Ever.
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

Nick C

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Re: Acting in turn/ undecalls
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2015, 10:41:07 PM »
Thomas,

 I'm glad you responded. It seems as though I'm all alone when it comes to complaining about a rule I don't agree with. Baffling is a good word to describe it...BAFFLING, I like it! ;D

Brian Vickers

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Re: Acting in turn/ undecalls
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2015, 09:49:39 AM »
My understanding of the application of rule 37 in this case is as follows: It's a mandatory full call if facing the opening bet of a round.  If the blinds are 500-1000, then the opening bet of the round is 1000.  This player is facing a raise and a re-raise so he is no longer facing the "opening bet."  Therefore in this case he would only be held to the rule that states that chips place in the pot in turn remain in the pot.  He would forfeit 5000 and fold or have the option to call the entire 15000.

On the "opening bet" if it was post flop and a player bet 3000, then 3000 is the opening bet.  The reason the opening bet would be 1000 pre-flop is that a minimum call amount has been established by the presence of the big blind.  Post-flop 1000 is the minimum bet, but if someone opens for more then that is the opening bet. 

That's how I have interpreted this rule.  Perhaps #mikeb can shed some light if I have been misunderstanding.

BillM16

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Re: Acting in turn/ undecalls
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2015, 06:43:14 AM »
I agree with Brian. Even new players should be required to forfeit the 5K played in turn here as it is clearly the rule.  This is an example of the "other situation" where the "TD's discretion applies."  But, IMO the TD should only use discretionary options that follow the rules.  It is fair to expect new players to make mistakes that cost them some chips in a poker tournament.  It should be encouragement for them to learn the rules of the game.  The rule "Chips put in the pot in turn stay in the pot" should be enforced with the same level of commitment as "Verbal betting declarations in turn are binding."  These rules are so basic that every player ought to know them well.

Nick C

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Re: Acting in turn/ undecalls
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2015, 02:38:20 PM »
BillM16:

 It's true the rules pertaining to verbal bets have been around forever. My problem is when there is a gross misunderstanding. Player A bets 200...Player B Makes it 2000...Player C says "raise" and pushes in 400 (thinking the bet is 200). Now I know, because he said raise first, the rules would commit him to a minimum of 4000? Same situation only Player C says nothing but pushes 400 into the pot, (still thinking he is raising). Chips put in the pot should remain in the pot, correct? This, however, will not cost him 4000...
 When does the floor consider the intent of the player?
 I know it's tough to be sure of a players intent, but there are times when it is an obvious misunderstanding. To me, it's as if we are discouraging any verbal bets. Knowing the rules is important but in too many situations the chips go to undeserving players.

MikeB

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Re: Acting in turn/ undecalls
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2015, 08:54:39 PM »
My understanding of the application of rule 37 in this case is as follows: It's a mandatory full call if facing the opening bet of a round.  If the blinds are 500-1000, then the opening bet of the round is 1000.  This player is facing a raise and a re-raise so he is no longer facing the "opening bet."  Therefore in this case he would only be held to the rule that states that chips place in the pot in turn remain in the pot.  He would forfeit 5000 and fold or have the option to call the entire 15000.

On the "opening bet" if it was post flop and a player bet 3000, then 3000 is the opening bet.  The reason the opening bet would be 1000 pre-flop is that a minimum call amount has been established by the presence of the big blind.  Post-flop 1000 is the minimum bet, but if someone opens for more then that is the opening bet.  

That's how I have interpreted this rule.  Perhaps #mikeb can shed some light if I have been misunderstanding.

Couple things:

1) As in Brian's illustration, pre-flop for purposes of Rule 37, the initial posted BB is considered the opening bet. On all other streets the first bet made is the opener.

2) Rule 37 doesn't mandate that the player be allowed to leave the undercall in and fold... it gives the TD latitude to assess the entire situation: how much more is it to call, what might the player's intent be, how obvious is it that he misinterpreted the amount to call, what is the player's experience level, etc. etc.  And some TDs may insist on a full call here in almost every situation, which is within the scope of the Rule IMO as undercalls are player's responsibility.