Author Topic: All-In chip count  (Read 8034 times)

madkiwi9

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All-In chip count
« on: March 06, 2010, 07:53:45 AM »
Hi there

We have a player in our school who "knows it all". One of these guys who will find something to pick on, when proven wrong will then find something else. Here is his latest

Player A  -  Goes All in
Various players still to talk
Dealer counts the chips to give an accurate chip count to the players left to call

The above "know it all" then objects VERY strongly - saying the dealer is NOT allowed to count the chips and give a chip count, unless specifically asked

My arguement is that an all-in is a raise and when you raise you should announce verbally or with chips them amount of your raise.
So surely in an all-in, the amount must be made known?

Looking forward to comments
Russell Miller
Southern Cross Poker

Stuart Murray

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Re: All-In chip count
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2010, 10:54:44 AM »
absolutely,

The dealer shall announce all action at the table including any raises and how much it is for each prospective player to 'play'  this shall include at all times given valid chip counts and counting stacks.  Furthermore the dealer should be verifying the amount of bets and raises to ensure they are correct.  In any game I always train my dealers to count and announce which includes stacking chips in a plainly identifyable manner to the rest of the table, this includes spreading down stacks to 20,10 and 5 with the last 5 spread to give accurate information.

Regards
Stuart

chet

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Re: All-In chip count
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2010, 08:46:22 PM »
Here is an interesting point to consider:

2009 WSOP Rule 77.  "Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only.  Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.  If requested, dealers may spread the pot so that it can be counted by a player."  This is the ONLY place I have seen such a rule.  I did not find it in either Robert's Rules of Poker or the TDA rules.

We can discuss whether chips, in the situation at hand, are "in the pot" or not.  I believe they are.  That said, I also firmly believe that a player has an right to know how much 'action' he/she is facing.  Hence, the words "If requested" in this rule, in my opinion. 

I have been involved in many events where the dealer routinely stacks and counts the chips of an all-in bet.  I am of the opinion that dealers should not do so unless requested.  Why?  Because it most cases it wastes time and delays the game, especially in Tournaments.  Players will wait until the dealer completes the stack and count, even if the amount of the bet is immaterial, hence delaying the action.    My experience is that most players do not need to know the exact amount, that if the stack(s) are 'clean', they can figure out the size themselves.  Dealers for the most part have other tasks they can be doing such as coloring up the pot, etc., as opposed to counting bet amounts unnecessarily.

I would be interested in hearing from the TDA BOD on this one.

Georg

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Re: All-In chip count
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2010, 04:16:26 PM »
In my opinion, the players should be informed of the amount of the bet (all in is a bet).
I also agreed with chet, that it does take time and delays the game. When I was a dealer I decided on my own, when to count and when to wait for the player asking for a count. If I can do it in a few seconds I will count it, sometimes I gave an estimate like between 40k and 45k and then added "If you want to know the exact amount, I will count it for you"

The count should not be mandatory without request, I believe a good dealer can decide when it does not delay the game and when it does.

Georg

DCJ001

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Re: All-In chip count
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2010, 08:25:29 PM »
Here is an interesting point to consider:

2009 WSOP Rule 77.  "Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only.  Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.  If requested, dealers may spread the pot so that it can be counted by a player."  This is the ONLY place I have seen such a rule.  I did not find it in either Robert's Rules of Poker or the TDA rules.

We can discuss whether chips, in the situation at hand, are "in the pot" or not.  I believe they are.  That said, I also firmly believe that a player has an right to know how much 'action' he/she is facing.  Hence, the words "If requested" in this rule, in my opinion. 

I have been involved in many events where the dealer routinely stacks and counts the chips of an all-in bet.  I am of the opinion that dealers should not do so unless requested.  Why?  Because it most cases it wastes time and delays the game, especially in Tournaments.  Players will wait until the dealer completes the stack and count, even if the amount of the bet is immaterial, hence delaying the action.    My experience is that most players do not need to know the exact amount, that if the stack(s) are 'clean', they can figure out the size themselves.  Dealers for the most part have other tasks they can be doing such as coloring up the pot, etc., as opposed to counting bet amounts unnecessarily.

I would be interested in hearing from the TDA BOD on this one.

WSOP rule #77 is also TDA rule # 35.   

Pot Size
Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only.  Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

But this rule has nothing to do with the original poster's question regarding counting a player's bet.

Nick C

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Re: All-In chip count
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 07:32:14 AM »
In regards to the All-in chip count. I teach my student dealers to never count the amount unless a player requests that information. The main reason is to save time. The amount is very often recognized by players, they can be visibly accessed (four or five tournament chips) for example, is easy for a dealer to make the call...".raise to whatever the amount," or "player is all-in for whatever the amount.
" I will assume that it is a large amount, or a push of huge proportions. Why waste time counting the chips if no one wants to play.   Could you imagine a dealer counting out each players wager every time a player goes all-in....... Player pushes $1,087,000 in chips into the pot, the dealer stops to count it down, only to have all of the opposing players fold. The game would never end.  A player considering a call and asks how much was bet, would be the only time that a dealer should count the all-in wager, or to confirm the correct amount on a verbal declaration of a specific bet.    Multiple players in a hand will create different situations.  The best example would be when the action is down to two players only. The first player to act goes all-in and the remaining player calls. Sometimes is is not necessary to count out any chips because it is obvious that the player with the winning hand has the other player "covered" (more chips). If the player with the lesser amount has the winning hand, those chips will be matched and surrendered to the winner and the excess amount will be returned to the loser.
Nick C