Author Topic: Is this unclear betting amount?  (Read 7595 times)

Brian Vickers

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Is this unclear betting amount?
« on: September 06, 2014, 03:42:05 PM »
Blinds 75-150.  On flop player says "3" and throws out 2 x 1000 chips.  After the 2 chips land he throws out an additional 1000 chip.  Dealer calls me for a ruling.  My ruling was that "3" on its own is unclear and it would take a corresponding clear bet to clarify that amount.  Because the player did not put out enoigh chips to cover a 3000 chip bet initially, the unclear betting rule applied and the smallest applicable bet was 300. 

Thoughts?

MikeB

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2014, 04:40:23 PM »
Brian: first I would need to know the exact timing of the verbal declaration and the 2000 chip push. If verbal first then chips it's 300 for sure by the unclear bet rule. If chips first then declaration I'd call that an opening bet of 2000. If simultaneous I think I'd favor making that 3000 though a strict interpretation of "verbal trumps if simultaneous" might have him at 300 due to unclear bet. However if truly simultaneous I think I'd use the 2000 as clarity that he didn't intend 300. Especially when it's 2 separate 1000 chips.  Thanks for the great case.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 04:55:03 PM »
"3" then chips.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2014, 07:10:29 PM »
Thank you Mike!

Question was asked of @savagepoker and he said he would go with 3000.  (Asked by player at our tournament who didn't agree with my ruling).  Would like to hear others weigh in.

MikeB

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2014, 09:43:02 PM »
Brian I think the OP reads closest to simultaneous.... "says 3 and throws out chips".... and as in together. In that case I would favor 3000 as per prior post.

IMO the unclear issue arises when there's a significant pause between the verbal and chip toss. If the guy clearly says 3 then reaches for 2 chips, that really favors 300 IMO.

A tangent issue to consider is current pot size... (didn't someone bring this up at the 2013 Summit?): Let's say 300 is still a legitimate bet but it's not a reasonable bet... in your example let's say pre-flop a player goes all-in for 6500 and is called by 2 live players, well you have 19,500 in the pot at least. When the guy says 3 post-flop then it's easier to entertain he's talking 3k.  On the other hand, say pre-flop 2 people call the BB and the SB folds, well you have 525 in the pot. If the post-flop opener says "3" at a 525 pot and he doesn't have the two 1k chips in his hand that he's starting to toss then that favors ruling it 300.

Again, great example.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 10:52:02 PM by MikeB »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2014, 10:54:54 PM »
The way the dealer explained it it was '3' then chips were thrown out. The pot size by my estimation was somewhere between 1200-2000.  I don't recall seeing any 500 chips which leads me to believe the preflop raise couldn't have been higher than 400-500 range at most.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 10:57:49 PM by Brian Vickers »

MikeB

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2014, 08:54:47 AM »
Brian I recall now, the word "reasonably" was added to Rule 49 at the 2013 Summit:

Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended. Also, whenever the size of a declared bet can reasonably have multiple meanings, it will be ruled as the lesser value. Ex: “I bet five”. If it is unclear whether “five” means $500 or $5,000, the bet stands as $500. See Rules 2, 3 & 40.

Nick C

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2014, 07:40:33 AM »
Mike,

 I am not in favor of considering the pot size, or bets from previous rounds. Until we decide that a percentage would apply. In my opinion it will create more problems and inconsistency than we have now.

 I would be in favor of creating a rule that would give the players, and the supervisors a solid solution. I've read TDA #43 several times and I believe it to be very complex. If we add: Any verbal bet, or raise, that is followed by multiple same denomination chips being placed into the betting area will be governed by the following: The removal of a single chip, still leaves more than the minimum required amount for a minimum raise, the greater amount must be applied. Example: A player facing a 150 bet that states "three" prior to placing 2 1000 count chips into the pot must complete the raise to 3000.
Looking back on this reply, I can see that my solution should only apply if the verbal and push occur at the same time. Saying "three" first should only be recognized as a 300 where pushing the two 1000 chips forward before saying "three" should constitute a raise to 3000.
What a mess! ::)
 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 07:50:48 PM by Nick C »

Tristan

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2014, 10:23:48 AM »
I would likely have ruled 3k.  If his intention was to bet 300, he wouldn't have thrown in 2 1k chips.  If he had said 3 and thrown in a 5k chip, I would have ruled it 300 because I have no idea what his intention is at that point so I would default to the lesser amount.
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K-Lo

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 10:54:53 PM »
Personally, I'm not against considering the size of the pot -- if the rule suggests that we have to determine what is "reasonable", then I don't see why we should be constrained in the factors that we use to determine what is reasonable or not.  If a strict application was to be enforced (i.e. if "3" would ALWAYS be considered 300 whenever the big blind is less than 300), then I doubt it would have been necessary to even add the word "reasonable" to the rule. 

Another factor that I think one should definitely consider is the action in the current betting round.  So for example, if blinds were 75-150, someone raised to 600, and then the next player said "3", I'd be much more likely to view this as 3K than an undercall of 300. 

The fact that the player threw in 2 1K chips first, suggesting that the bet is on the order of 1000s rather than 100s, can also be a relevant factor; however, I personally would put less weight on this. The only question in my mind is whether 300 is a reasonable wager or not at the point the verbal declaration is made  -- i.e. before chips are put into the pot --, and apply the rule accordingly.  Otherwise, you may get into situations where a player could alter the bet by putting in 1K chips instead of 100 chips after getting a read, for example, if both are legal wagers.

So I think it's OK to take whatever factors you think are relevant into account to determine "reasonableness". But if there's doubt in your mind, I'd go with the lesser amount.


WSOPMcGee

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Re: Is this unclear betting amount?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2014, 10:12:19 PM »
Answer to the question - Yes it is.

What to do?

I think the discussion of considering the pot size is going off course. Why not consider the size of the chips used to make the bet?

I think we can all agree as Tristan alluded to that tossing in a single oversize 5k chip is an easy decision of declaring the bet 300. But in this case we have two oversized 1k chips. As TDs sometimes we are left trying to decipher intent. So let's follow the clues give to us to discover the intent of this player.
==============================================================================================================
Without using rule 49:

First they state "3" - Is 3 anything a legal bet? YES
3 what? - 300 or 3,000

Was a single chip used? - NO
Were multiple chips used? - YES
What size chips? - Oversized 1k chips

Then the bet is 3,000.

Now lets use rule 49 as written: "whenever the size of a declared bet can reasonably have multiple meanings, it will be ruled as the lesser value"

First they state "3" - Is 3 anything a legal bet? YES

3 what? - 300 or 3,000

Which is the lesser value? - 300

Then the bet is 300
===============================================================================================================
Rule 49 needs a complete rewrite IMO or needs to be removed completely. All Rule 49 does is complicate the issue of rule 37 and reiterates what rule 37 says - Verbal bets are binding. So if verbal is binding and the bet was stated as "3" and the lesser value is always used per rule 49, then the bet is 300. End of story.

Why?

Because the TDA is setup not to decipher intent. It's setup to make decisions based on facts and evidence of what happened and not what the player intended to do.

Do I agree with that? Sometimes Yes and sometimes No.

I would prefer to make a decision based on chips put into play, ie two 1k chips immediately followed by a third after realizing he only placed two chips out instead of three.

While Rule 1 allows me complete latitude, Rule 49 cramps my ability to make a rational decision and over complicates a rule set that was once easy to follow and is now a novel.

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