Author Topic: Muck or Show cases  (Read 5430 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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Muck or Show cases
« on: June 27, 2014, 07:22:23 PM »
Somebody said: "There is no stupid questions!"

I hope it's true so you will excuse this following serie:

TWO PLAYERS AT THE RIVER:

A bet - B call

1) A wanna muck - B can oblige him to show - Then B is beaten and wanna muck - Can A oblige him to show then? (would say yes)

or more simple:

2) A shows - B wanna muck - Can A obige B to show? (would say yes)

another case:

A check - B check

3) A wanna muck - B can't oblige him to show and wins himself as the last hand without having to show neither (right?)

4) A shows - B wanna muck - A can't oblige B to show (right?)

another case:

THREE PLAYERS AT THE RIVER:

A bets - B calls - C calls

5) A shows - B wanna muck - Can C oblige B to show the hand? (would say yes)

6) A wanna muck - B oblige him to show - B shows - C wanna muck - Can B oblige C to show? (would say yes)

TY in advance,

GG

  

 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 07:23:48 PM by Guillaume Gleize »

MikeB

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Re: Muck or Show cases
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 10:23:53 PM »
TWO PLAYERS AT THE RIVER:

A bet - B call

1) A wanna muck - B can oblige him to show - Yes, because B "paid to see" A's cards... although not a formal TDA rule, this was agreed by an overwhelming # of delegates at the 2013 Summit.

Then B is beaten and wanna muck - Can A oblige him to show then? (would say yes) There is no agreement on this. Some venues require ANY hand to be shown by request, some will show the hand only until it becomes a nuisance, some are stricter and will show only with good cause. Personally I wouldn't automatically obligate B to show here, but I would obligate A for reason above.

or more simple:

2) A shows - B wanna muck - Can A obige B to show? (would say yes) See above. There is no consistency on this at the moment and IMO probably never will be. This is one place where "putting your player's hat on" makes alot of sense to me: as a player I wouldn't want to be obligated to show if I'm B in this situation.

another case:

A check - B check

3) A wanna muck - B can't oblige him to show and wins himself as the last hand without having to show neither (right?) Again, there's no clear consensus on this. Some extremely large venues / tours would require A to show here. It's basically up to your house rules at this time. What the TDA does require is that B retain his cards or have tabled them at time of his request.

4) A shows - B wanna muck - A can't oblige B to show (right?)  Same answer as 3 above

another case:

THREE PLAYERS AT THE RIVER:

A bets - B calls - C calls

5) A shows - B wanna muck - Can C oblige B to show the hand? (would say yes) No consistent rule or practice on this. Personally I wouldn't automatically obligate B to show pursuant to C's request. They both paid to see A, and I would obligate A to show if either B or C requests. Note also, if C wants to see B's hand, he must retain or table his own cards at time of request.

6) A wanna muck - B oblige him to show - B shows - C wanna muck - Can B oblige C to show? (would say yes)  Totally up to house rules, no consistent rule on this one. Personally, if I put my player's hat on here, if I'm C  I don't think B has any special right to see my cards... we both called A.

Yet another great scenario!

Nick C

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Re: Muck or Show cases
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2014, 05:45:55 AM »
Guillaume,

 Mike is correct when he says " there is no consistency" regarding this rule. I will say that I've always found the simple rule from Robert's Rules of Poker, the best.
Showdown: #5 Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

 I will always side with one of the simple standards that has existed as long as I can remember. Why change it.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 07:44:18 AM by Nick C »

Nicolas Bouis

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Re: Muck or Show cases
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2014, 09:43:41 AM »

5) A shows - B wanna muck - Can C oblige B to show the hand? (would say yes) No consistent rule or practice on this. Personally I wouldn't automatically obligate B to show pursuant to C's request. They both paid to see A, and I would obligate A to show if either B or C requests. Note also, if C wants to see B's hand, he must retain or table his own cards at time of request.


I've got a question on this case : C may have called to see both hands of A and B isn'it ? I mean that his strategy could have make him call, if the amount is cheap for exemple,  only to see cards. He engaged chips to. Obviously if he uses this potential wright he would accept to show if asked because he still has a living hand.

Nick, i like the rule you wrote but to be sure i understand, the winner is the only one that can ask to see because he shows his hand (and only in this case) because he stil has a living hand ?


Nick C

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Re: Muck or Show cases
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2014, 06:38:32 PM »
Nicolas,

 If I understand your question correctly. What the rule states is: The player about to receive the pot, is allowed to ask to see an opponents folded, (or mucked), hand. But by doing so, he will risk the chance of losing the pot if the mucked hand is revealed as the better hand. I hope I am making this clear. If not, let me know and I'll try again.

Nicolas Bouis

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Re: Muck or Show cases
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2014, 03:41:23 AM »
Nicolas,

 If I understand your question correctly. What the rule states is: The player about to receive the pot, is allowed to ask to see an opponents folded, (or mucked), hand. But by doing so, he will risk the chance of losing the pot if the mucked hand is revealed as the better hand. I hope I am making this clear. If not, let me know and I'll try again.

Thank you very much Nick, i understand.

Other question, this rule is available in any case at showdown ? For exemple, if all players check, the player about to receive the pot, is allowed to ask to see an opponents folded, (or mucked), hand. or it's only if bets and calls have been made ?

Nick C

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Re: Muck or Show cases
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2014, 06:25:35 AM »
Nicolas,

 I don't want to complicate your situation. You need to understand that the rule I quoted was for cash games. Tournament rules are different from casino to casino. The ideal scenario, in my opinion, is to insist all called hands be tabled at the showdown, this includes the final betting round that is checked.

 It is not my intention to dictate how you should rule in your tournaments. I am only offering a suggestion, for a solution, that would make showdown procedures the same everywhere. Remember, Robert's Rules of Poker (Version 11) is for cash games. I, personally prefer it, (RR Showdown #5) for tournaments, too.