Author Topic: Should action OOT options be limited if action changes?  (Read 4131 times)

MikeB

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Should action OOT options be limited if action changes?
« on: June 26, 2014, 09:05:22 AM »
The TDA received the following inquiry on the subject of whether an OOT player should have all options open if action is changed; or if his actions should be limited and any prior underbet ruled binding.

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From: Name withheld
Subject: OOT

Message Body:
A little confused with OOT player.

Blinds 200 - 400 player 1 raises to 1000,
player 4 calls OOT.
player 2 then re-raises all in.

Is players 4 call of 1000, not binding, as your rule
38: Action Out of Turn (OOT) seems to say and can be returned to player 4, as
the action has changed?

I was always under the impression that any action OOT was fully binding and they
had the option to call the re-raise or fold, the fold would mean that player 4
would lose the chips declared.

I always believed that any declaration of action was binding, in turn or OOT.

I do know that some casinos say that a declaration is fully binding and a fold
means the OOT player chips are lost.

Could you please advise.

Name withheld
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MikeB

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Re: Should action OOT options be limited if action changes?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 09:07:28 AM »
Initial response to the above inquiry was as follows:

Hello Name Withheld:

Thanks for the great question. The issue of Action OOT was discussed at length at the 2013 TDA Summit. You will find complete video coverage of this topic beginning at 33:50 of the following link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKtze-0LKVY

You may also want to watch the discussion just before this on the Action In Turn rule.

During the Action OOT discussion you will hear the exact concern you're raising discussed at length by the delegates. After significant debate this long-standing TDA rule was re-confirmed by a super-majority at the Summit.

A bit of history on the subject: The TDA has had an Action OOT Rule in place since at least 2005-2007. Your question has arisen on earlier versions of the rule. At the 2011 Summit the delegates considered alternative language to clarify the rule. One template was the sentence added by the WSOP that made it crystal clear the OOT player has all options open if the skipped player changes the action: "If action changes, the OOT bet is not binding and is returned to the OOT player who has all options including: calling, raising, or folding..."  After some debate, the 2011 delegates adopted this language as the most unmistakably clear.

As you can see in the video link above, the question again arose in 2013 and the rule was ultimately re-confirmed by the delegates without change. The argument supported by the super-majority is that requiring the OOT player to leave his OOT bet in place gives too much control to the skipped player: the skipped player already A) knows what the OOT player wants to do AND B) can control (lock-in) the OOT bet by not changing the action. The super-majority believes that to go further and require the OOT player to leave his bet in, OR to limit his range of actions to his OOT declaration simply gives the skipped player too much control: the OOT player becomes the proverbial "fish on the hook" under those circumstances.

However, you're not alone in your view on the matter as you'll see in the video link and your input is greatly respected. If it fits your schedule, please consider attending Poker TDA Summit VII in 2015. We are also posting your inquiry anonymously on the Poker TDA Discussion Forum at the following link: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1036.0   You may wish to follow or join the discussion on the topic there.

Best regards,
Poker TDA Member Support Team

Nick C

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Re: Should action OOT options be limited if action changes?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 12:17:57 PM »
Mike,

 I can easily agree with one of the last lines you wrote: " the OOT player becomes the proverbial "fish on the hook" under those circumstances."

 The way I see it, that's how it should be. I also have a difficult time understanding the "changed" action part of the rule. Sorry.