Author Topic: Tabling faces up  (Read 5896 times)

Guillaume Gleize

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
Tabling faces up
« on: June 22, 2014, 05:27:05 AM »
Hello,

NLH tourney
7 players at the table
2 players left at the river
Board is J9843
Player A bets a huge amount
Player B takes his time then suddenly places his two cards faces up (JJ) in the middle of the table while saying something not clear like:
1) "I can pay you!" or ...
2) "I can't pay you!" ...
Player A immediatly shows his cards (88) saying: "You should have payed: you were winning!" And waited for the dealer to give him the pot!
Player B immediatly said that he said 1) and was actually calling!
Player A answers that he eared 2) and won!
...
Floor is called
...
Floor asked to the other people what they eared:
- Dealer is not sure about 1) and 2)
- 2 other players eared 1)
- 3 other players eared 2)
...
Your opinion?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 04:21:07 PM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3352
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Tabling faces up
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2014, 07:18:45 AM »
Hello Guillaume,

 Unfortunately, for Player A, as long as the action was unclear, and Player B's cards were on the table, I'd have to award the pot to the best hand, (after he calls, of course).

 The dealer was unsure, and Player A must wait. If Player A said nothing, there is a chance that Player B might have folded once the dealer got confirmation of his intentions. This is another unfortunate situation that can occur any time the players fail to abide by a few simple fundamental procedures.

Player B's responsibility: If the intent is to muck...the cards should be tossed-face down- in the direction of the muck. If the intent was to call...the amount should have been placed into the betting area before the cards were tabled.  Or, a clear verbal declaration should have been made.

Player A's response was premature. He must hold his cards until his opponents hand is mucked, or his opponents intentions are certain.

The dealer should have stopped Player A from reacting, by insisting that Player B make his intentions clear.

What made your situation possible, could have been prevented by; either player, or the dealer. They all contributed.

Tristan

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
Re: Tabling faces up
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2014, 09:27:29 AM »
I agree with Nick.

Neither 1) or 2) are "Fold", "Call", or any other clear action and they are left open to interpretation.  

The cards were not mucked and were not clearly verbally folded...so they are live.  

Ideally, I would have liked the dealer to reach for the JJ or to ask the player that tabled JJ whether he was calling or folding.  Further, I would have liked the dealer to say "Time! Action is here!"  when the other player started reacting to seeing the JJ.  Either of those things would have helped prevent the situation from occurring.  

The player with 88 learned a valuable lesson and will not likely expose their hand prematurely again!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 09:31:23 AM by Tristan »
Tristan
@TristanWilberg on Twitter

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
Re: Tabling faces up
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2014, 10:53:47 AM »
I'll take the devil's advocacy on this one...  And preface by saying as a player I absolutely hate being in A's shoes on these angles, and have no visceral desire to protect players who do what B did here.

First: this is all very non-standard behavior when facing a bet so this is a Rule 1 decision.

Second: one version of the facts is that when facing a bet Player B  1) put his cards "in the middle of the table" AND 2) mumbled something that's not clear

***********************************
Now, since I don't know what this guy said, I'm really left with his ACTIONS.   In GG's original post, what perplexes me the most is the line "in the middle of the table".... so, let's take two extremes:

Extreme 1: Player B retains control of his cards very near to his staging area of the table, he turns them up, but keeps his fingers on them... and he appears to be contemplating a bet....

OR  Extreme 2: Player B casually tosses his cards face up right into the middle of the table, more or less exactly as he would if he were mucking... and mumbles something.

Since this is a Rule 1 decision, the closer the actions were to Extreme 1, the more likely I'm going to rule in B's favor...  But the closer his actions are to Extreme 2, the more likely I'm going to rule in A's favor.
***********************************

If a guy clearly says "I call" or in this case even clearly says "I'll pay you" (a very non-standard declaration btw), THEN tosses his cards face up in the middle of the table, fair enough he's calling.

Even if he turns his cards up and pushes them forward towards the middle but retains finger contact with the cards (i.e. remains in control of them), I don't like that, but I'll rule his cards are still live...

But if he just tosses his cards face up in the middle of the table I'm very tempted to say "when facing a bet you tossed your cards forward, relinquishing control" and in the absence of any preceding clear statement, that's a fold.
***********************************

So there you have it GG.... 3 people's opinions.... how did you rule ?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 10:55:20 AM by MikeB »

Tristan

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
Re: Tabling faces up
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2014, 12:22:52 PM »
I'll take the devil's advocacy on this one...  

I like it Mike!  There is nothing better than well thought out counterpoints and you did it well!  ;)
Tristan
@TristanWilberg on Twitter

BIG AL

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 23
Re: Tabling faces up
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2014, 06:33:56 AM »
I agree with the previous analysis.
But I would in this situations might be a little tougher. It is well known rule that the player responsible for their statements. In this case the player has not clearly announced his move. Therefore, to take account of its history. Is that player prone to such behavior, and the like. Perhaps declaring dead hands or punishment winning the pot was the best punishment for a given period. In any case, my opinion is that the fault of players who throws cards on the center of the table far more than a player who was waiting for his decision.

Guillaume Gleize

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
Re: Tabling faces up
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2014, 04:42:29 PM »
Well ... First TY all for your answers & interest in this case!

OK to be clear about "IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TABLE": Player B, after a moment of thinking, took his cards with both hands, extend toward the middle (near the pot), hit them on the table faces up (I'm not sure about my english but his hands never released the cards untill they hit the table), the brought back his arms to the side of the table. He did all that while saying the unclear sentence.

OK our (uncertain) decision:

This kind of situation is on our rules (but I donno if ok with the TDA): I'll try to translate:

Putting the cards FORWARD, FACES UP and WITH NO DECLARATION during a betting round is

1) An UNCLEAR action that means nothing and must be clarified while stopping the hand!

2) Must be fight and discourage by taking decision AGAINST the author if it creates a confused situation that could advantage them! 

So because of the second point and also because B wasn't showing the nuts ... We declared his hand DEAD as a FOLD!

...

We were not sure to have taken the good decision so that's why I'm posting here for sure LOL!

GG

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3352
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Tabling faces up
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2014, 05:48:02 AM »
Guillaume

 I see nothing wrong with your rule. #1 is okay if you can stop the action and clarify Player b's intent. #2) I also can agree with your decision to kill his hand if you feel he were trying to take advantage.

 The important issue, in my opinion, is to make your rulings clear to all players. So, I suggest, instead of constantly trying to sort out all of these unclear betting situations:
Recommended Procedure: All player's must clarify their intent before tabling their cards. Either a clear announcement, or placement of wager into the betting area before showing any cards.

That's it! Failure to follow these simple rules, will result in a possible unintended outcome.