Author Topic: assists dealers or not  (Read 4842 times)

BIG AL

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assists dealers or not
« on: June 20, 2014, 05:49:15 AM »
The issue around which often argue with my players. Is the dealer shall cut chips whenever a player says  ALL IN and the other player asks how many. In doing so the player who has played in a lot of Al chips behind. Not pushed them into the pot but only announced his move.
Or I'll give you an example. If player A Bet 4K B ALL IN 13K dealers take 4k from player B and player A communicated that to him yet 9K for a  Call. Absolutely sure that's wrong. I question if the player A asks the dealer how much more for me? Does the dealer have to tell him how much, or just to say total ALL IN?

MikeB

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Re: assists dealers or not
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 10:24:21 AM »
Hello Al:

One TDA rule and one recommended procedure address your very important question:

1) TDA Rule 52: Count of Opponent's Chip Stack: "Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of opponents’ chip stacks (Rule 24). Players may only request a more precise count if facing an all-in bet. The all-in player is not required to count; if he opts not to, the dealer or floor will count it. Accepted action applies (See Rule 46)".

AND

2) TDA Recommended Procedure RP-2: Bringing in Bets is Discouraged. "Routinely bringing in chips as betting and raising proceeds around the table is poor dealing practice. The reduction in bet stacks may influence the action, create confusion & increase the
risk of error. The TDA recommends that dealers do not touch a player's bet unless a count is needed. Only the player currently facing action may ask the dealer to bring in chips."


Basically RP-2 says don't bring in chips routinely. However, Player A facing action may request the amount to call be brought in from a raiser's total bet (Player B) so that the Player A can determine the amount of the raise he's facing. Note also in Rule 52 a player may request a chip count of an all-in bet.

Hope this helps and thanks again for the great question.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 10:26:50 AM by MikeB »

WtchyWmn57

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Re: assists dealers or not
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 12:50:58 PM »
This came up at our no limit holdem tournament last night.  There are several players in the hand and one of the players (not the next to act), asks for a chip count.  The TD ruled that he was angling as there were other players in the hand and gave him a warning.  Is it only the next player to act that can ask for a chip count.  And is asking for a chip count angling?  Thank you for your response.  Chucky

Nick C

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Re: assists dealers or not
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2014, 01:55:36 PM »
Chucky,

 First of all, we need to clarify if the chip count pertains to a wager. If it does not, I don't believe any player can ask for a chip count of any player's un-bet chips

 As far as I know, as long as chips are in clear view of all players, the owner of those chips does not have to divulge any information.  We see it on a regular basis when a player asks another "How much do you have"?  Usually you get an honest answer. However, he does not have to tell you.  This is when the responsibility falls on the calling player. My advice, wait your turn and ask the dealer to stack the opponents chips so you can determine exactly what bet amount you are facing...or, how much he can raise you.

K-Lo

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Re: assists dealers or not
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2014, 10:30:42 PM »
I agree with the TD's approach. And with Nick.  If a player wants a count of an opponent's wager, s/he must wait his/her turn. This is a turn-based game.  It could be an angle, or perhaps it isn't. But a warning is certainly fair because the question "out of turn", like an action out of turn, may unduly influence play.

Also, as Nick noted, if the player wants a count of "chips behind", the opponent need only place his chips in countable stacks -- it is improper for the dealer to count those non-wagered chips, even upon request.  
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 07:05:13 AM by K-Lo »

Tristan

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Re: assists dealers or not
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2014, 03:21:31 PM »
Agree with the above.  Players, in turn, may ask for the amount of a bet they are facing.  If it isn't their turn or if the chips have not been bet, no count shall be given by the dealer and other players should refrain from commenting. 
Tristan
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