Author Topic: At showdown, does a player have a right to see the hand he called?  (Read 15512 times)

K-Lo

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Re: At showdown, does a player have a right to see the hand he called?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 05:37:20 AM »
Point of Order: Doesn't Rule 16 (Showdown Order) factor here?

A liberal reading of the OP indicates Player B tabled first, tripping over this rule. The rule itself has wiggle room ("...the TD may enforce an order...") but otherwise compels the player with the last bet or raise to table first, and can go back to the turn or even the flop to find the first bettor. (Bar poker!) Would all of you agree to show the hand, but warn Player B to allow the dealer to request the correct first hand per this rule to table first?

I also join Nick in the "Table all of them!" camp.

A literal interpretation of OP's situation intimates A mucked before B tabled. (Note the OP did NOT outright state B tabled cards.) B says he wants to see A's cards, but hasn't shown his own hand yet. I have had this exact situation happen when someone gets caught bluffing. The player is sure he will get an all-fold, but gets called and would rather muck than table.

'Brian

Ideally the hands are simultaneously tabled. Rule 16 only comes into play when players are reluctant to show. The situation in the OP is clarified in a later post: it was A who bet and B who called. So if an order must be enforced, A should show first. As you noted, A may want to muck because he was called and caught bluffing. The new rule allows the caller to request that the player wanting to muck must show. A may well prefer to muck rather than show his bluff, and under the old rules he was permitted to do so, but now the caller can ask to see that hand.

With respect to Rule 16 having "wiggle room", it was suggested that Rule 16 could be interpreted that one "can go back to the turn or even the flop to find the first bettor". This is not correct under TDA rules, and in fact, under most rule sets except perhaps certain European tourneys and where certain venues have implemented different house rules (I vaguely recall Australia may fall in this category but I can't remember now).  The "go back to previous streets to see who was the last aggressor" approach is not in favor now. I think Rule 16 is a bit wordy, but is quite clear on this point.

K

Nick C

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Re: At showdown, does a player have a right to see the hand he called?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 06:16:59 AM »
Hello Brian,
 It's always good to know there is support for tabling all called hands at the showdown. Back in the old days...30 years ago...some cardrooms in Vegas did go back to the earlier betting rounds when the late rounds were checked. I believe it created too many problems, and delay's, so the last round is the most practical to consider. As far as "order of showdown" there are times when it is completely normal for a player to turn their cards out of sequence. The best example would be a player holding an exclusive nut hand. Why delay the outcome?

 I agree with Ken about the "last aggressor." I always thought that a slight change in wording could further clarify this rule. For some reason, many misunderstood the last bettor or last to raise. I've always explained it to my students like this: The player who initiated the final bet or raise on the last round. All I can say is, everyone understood.

 I also instruct my dealers to address the proper player to show at the showdown.