New TDA rules regarding showing hands

[W0lfster]

Hi there,

Just commenting because from my understanding from watching the June 2011 TDA summit on youtube, I have the impression that the rules regarding asking to see a clled hand have changed. I could be wrong but what is the rules currently that was discussed at the summit and now apply. Example: showdown -  3 players, player A and B muck their hands and ask to see player C's hand. Does he have to show? What is the procedure? Does the dealer muck the hand and then show the hand?

From what I understand the rules are of the winning player that if he/she asks to see the winning hand, then the hand is live and has to show to win the pot. If the losing player asks to see the winning player's hand, the hand is losing player's hand is dead correct?I believe im right but I just need comfirmation, Thx

[Nick C]

Wolfster,
If Player A and B muck their hands when it is their turn to act the answer is no. If they bet, why would they muck their hands before seeing Player C's cards? I still believe that any player has a right to see a called hand. You did not specify the important information to properly answer your question. Was the last betting round checked? Players A and B surely didn't bet and fold? If opposing players fold, leaving only one player, that player wins and does not have to show anyone.

[JasperToo]

 The answer is Rule 12 and 14.

If on the river all three players check then Player A and B may muck without showing, if so, then player C is last man standing and rule 14 does not allow player A and B to ask to see the winning hand.

rule 12 is just about showdown order but if A and B decide to muck player C still has the right to ask to see the hand but they would be live and he could be beat.

And as Nick says, C does not have to show in the first scenario. (theoretically, another player at the table that was dealt into the hand could ask to see player C's hand, but that would be rude)  Also, there are some places that are using a house rule (TDA does NOT have this rule) that says you HAVE to show your cards to win the pot.  I think that one is silly but a lot of places are doing it even though it is not a TDA rule.

[Pepper_W]

We actually had to incorporate a variation of this rule in our game.  We have several relatives representing different families that play in our game and players began to suspect chip dumping.  After several bets throughout the hand, calling players would turn up a small pair and the original bettor would muck their cards. 
We implemented a rule that all players in any showdown must turn up their cards at the end of the hand.

Since implementing this rule we have removed 4 players for chip dumping and team playing.

[Nick C]

I like your rule.

[chet]

Pepper:  While I think your rule is OK, I submit that you don't need it.  Chip Dumping and Team Play are violations of certainly TDA Rule 54 at the least.  In TDA Rule 54 Chip Dumping is specifically identified as grounds for disqualification.  if you suspect Chip Dumping, then you just have the dealer "hold" the folded hands, so they can be identified, kill them and then turn them over. 

That said, it may be easier for you to enforce by having a separate rule.

Chet

[JasperToo]

I am with Chet.  The rules are already there that allow you to catch and disqualify team players and chip dumpers.  If it is suspected then other players or even the floor gets to ask to see the mucked hands.  A specific rule isn't needed.  And my take is that NOT showing is still an important part of the game so unless foul play is suspected, let them fold.

Sad that you had that many evil players at your games.....

[Nick C]

Pepper W,

IMO, I like your rule because; if all players know that their cards are going to be exposed at the showdown, it could be enough to deter them from any collusion. If it work's for your group, don't change it. I would have a tough time asking to see a players hand, only if collusion is suspected.

[Pepper_W]

I agree with you Chet, but chip dumping is very difficult to prove.  If you make everyone show their cards at the end of the hand and a questionable play pops up, it becomes very obvious to all the players at the table what is going on.  It not only serves as a deterrent to collusion, but opens the players up to some pretty serious commentary from their peers, which follows their questionable tactics to other games and they get to live with the scrutiny they created.

Not to mention it actually helped our game since players have more confidence that we won't tolerate cheating.

Thanks for the discussion.