Player only playing his blinds

[madkiwi9]

Help!!!

I had a situation last evening where a player only sat at the table to play his blinds.
He would play the sb and bb and then go to the bar where he was socialising etc and watch his table for when the blinds came around to him when he would sit down again and so on.
He effectivly did this for the first 5 hours of the tournament until he made final table.

A number of players complained about this but as his hands were being mucked there wasn't a lot i felt i could do?

What options do i have if any to do something about this!

[Stuart Murray]

Hi,

I had a similar situation last year at a regional final event where a player spent much of his time outside smoking and hovering over the air conditioning owing to it being July, the player then went on to cash in 6th on the final table.  I did nothing about it on that occasion, however if it happens again I have already decided I will speak firmly to the offending player (invoke the 1st)  I don't see why a player should amass chips then leave the game, only returning for his blinds.  I have decided that in future I will class it as soft play and issue the offender round sit outs, then ultimately disqualification.

There are no hard and fast guides or rules for this situation,  it is up to the TD to take action or not.  My lesson learned was that I should not allow such behaviour to continue as it is nbot in the best interests of the game.

Best Regards
Stuart

[chet]

I can appreciate the problem.  I have never had this happen in a live event, but I see it all the time 'on-line', where a player will double or triple up and then click on the "sitting out" button.  I don't disagree with the solution that Stuart is planning to use, as his player did amass a huge chip stack, but let me ask this question, What would you do if he just sat at the table and folded every hand? 

RRoP defines "Soft Play" as:  "Players should exert the same level of competitiveness against all players at the table.  It is inappropriate to check to a friend or family member in a situation that would merit a bet when a different player is the opponent."

Since he isn't putting any of his chips into play, how does that fit the definition of soft play?

I don't think there is any 'easy answer' to Stuart's problem, but that is why we get the "Big Bucks" as the TD isn't it.   

For Madkiwi: I am better able to fit his situation into the definition of 'Soft Play', since he is playing 20% of the hands.  I would be very comfortable invoking TDA Rule #43.

My understanding is that this player has not amassed a "big stack", but is sitting on his original stack and only paying the blinds.  I think the solution here may be to look at the structure of your event.  How does one make the final table with only the beginning stack?  There are some other threads on this forum, along with charts and so forth, that discuss event structures and I believe there was some discussion of how large the blinds should be at the time you reach the final table.  Just my thoughts and I Hope this Helps!

[madkiwi9]

Thanks guys appreciate the feedback,
He did increase his stack and cashed 4th.

It is part of his play to do this (i've asked around about his play at other games) and he does it often.
The hands he did play were aggressive as this is how he built his stack so 'soft play' doesn't really apply!
Tough one i know as he technically isn't really doing anything wrong so "spirit of the game" is a hard one to call as well....

[Georg]

Honestly I don't see a problem with that. I sometimes have players in my tournament that leave and come back after an hour or so. I had a player this week who was bored during the tournament break, so he sat down in a cash game. After the break he did not want to stop so stayed at the cash game for another 2 hours until his chips were blinded away. Nearly made it to the final table. But as chet already mentioned, he could also just sit there and fold his hands. Players should be happy about this, its dead money.

What had me thinking was this: what if 3 players on a table are not at their seat for a longer period. This table is now essentially 3 players short even though their chips are there, they are not. Do you balance this table by moving the players?

Georg

[chet]

What had me thinking was this: what if 3 players on a table are not at their seat for a longer period. This table is now essentially 3 players short even though their chips are there, they are not. Do you balance this table by moving the players?

Georg

I don't see how you could balance the table.  You can only balance the table if there are empty seats and since there are 'live' chips at the seats of the missing players the seats are not empty.  What would you do with the chips of the missing players, blind them off, remove them until the player returns?  What would you do when the blind comes to one of the missing positions, does the missing player post as well as the player that was moved to that seat?  

As stated earlier by yourself, this is essentially 'dead money'.  

The cards should not be disturbed as these seats should be dealt in and the hands automatically folded.  The players will receive the same hole cards they would have received either way.  The only thing that is effected is the 'flow' of that particular table in that they should be able to play more hands per hour.  If the players feel this is a disadvantage compared to the 'flow' at the "full" tables, they should be able to figure out how to even things out with a little thought, I'll not say more on that, I am sure you can figure it out as well as me.

[r.bartholow@charter.net]

The main reason for rules is to make a level playing field for everyone. In that vain, if everyone did (or 3) what his player did ,you wouldn't have much a game. Although there are no rules against this situition and player has paid to have his chips play it does violate "best interest of game" IMO it is TD'S call

[MikeB]

Help!!!

I had a situation last evening where a player only sat at the table to play his blinds.
He would play the sb and bb and then go to the bar where he was socialising etc and watch his table for when the blinds came around to him when he would sit down again and so on.
He effectivly did this for the first 5 hours of the tournament until he made final table.

A number of players complained about this but as his hands were being mucked there wasn't a lot i felt i could do?

What options do i have if any to do something about this!

Hi Kiwi:

I've got a real easy answer: introduce antes at some point in your blind intervals. He's probably not going to be sitting at the bar if a BB or two worth of antes is coming off his chipstack every round  This gets to the bigger question of how to "motivate" rocks at a tournament without putting too much pressure on the blinds, and again the best vehicle for this, IMO, is the ante. Thanks for sharing this situation.

[madkiwi9]

Mikeb,

Thanks a million for that one - have been thinking of intrducing them for a while.

I'm laughing now as your suggestion is so elegently simple but so effective!

Thanks a million and for all the feedback!

[higavin]

I think antes are your answer.  They are common is most tournaments.  We have 5 weekly tournaments and the only one without antes is the bounty touranament.

As for players sitting out let me point out some things I have obseved.

Phil Helmuth arrives late to every major touenament he plays in.

Phil Laak was sick on his day one of the WSOP Main Event one year.  They would not allow him to start on another day so he tripled up quickly and went to his room. HBe was blinded out
for the rest of the day but he still had a respectable stack when his day 2 came around and he was feeling better.

In the 1990 WOrld Series Main Event, Stu Ungar did not retrun to the table after the 3rd day due to illness but his chip stack still made the final table and finsihed 9th and in the money.

I know it seems insulting to the other players to not play and let your stack coast into the FT but neither will these players ever win an event since they handicap themseleves by not building their stacks and equiping themselves for the final table battle.

Add you antes at the point whne the BB is 100, start with 25 dollars and increase every level 25, 50, 75, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 800, 1000 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, and so on.

You will here some complaints from some players but the tournaments will also play quicker.  Wxplain that you are structuring your tournaments to match the big ones.

[SilverDollarTD@ec.rr.com]

The question that I have is simple. What's the difference if that player is away from the table socializing, smoking or whatever, or if he/she is sitting at the table and folding every hand?

Soft play is defined as the act of taking it easy on another player at the table by not playing as aggressively as one normally would.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to truly detect soft play you have to know what the players cards are, correct?

I remember watching the WPT game they had on TV for people who were playing online and they warned 2 players (brothers) for soft play, but they were able to do that because they had the hole cams and saw what they had.

When a player is sitting at a table you can't tell a player that they MUST play the cards that are dealt to them because it is a players choice as to what they want to play.

I played in a tournament in Vegas last year and most of what I got was horrible, including the 2 5 off suit I got 13 times. But who would know what I had? I could have had monsters and just decided that I didn't want to play the hand.

Does it aggravate the other players when a player with a big stack is away from the table and not playing? It absolutely does. But I find it difficult to tell a player that they have to play, and unless you are seeing their hole cards and know for a fact they are Soft Playing, I can't see how you can really enforce the Soft Play rule.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but forcing a player to play something they don't want to play becomes a problem in my book.

[Nick C]

I really like what everyone has to say about this situation. The ante seems to be one of the better solutions. I am not sure what rulings there are pertaining to multiple players doing the same thing at the same time. I know that the Seneca Casinos have a three man walking rule in cash games, where more than two players can't lobby or go to lunch or dinner at the same time. I just don't know how you could enforce such a ruling in a tournament.
Nick C