Call or undercall

[Ash]

Hi guys

Post flop
Player A bets 200, B calls, C raises 400, D all in 2200.
A didn't see the all in raise and throws a one 1k chip (without saying anything) into the previous 200 thinking to call the 400.
What option for player A?

[BillM16]

Good morning Ash,

Does this answer your question?

TDA 2017 Rule #42B

A player undercalls by declaring or pushing out less than the call amount without first declaring "call". An undercall is a mandatory full call if made in turn facing 1) any bet heads-up or 2) the opening bet on any round multi-way. In other situations, TD's discretion applies. The opening bet is the first chip bet of each betting round (not a check). In blind games the posted BB is the pre-flop opener. All-in buttons reduce undercall frequency (See Recommended Procedure 1). This rule governs when players must make a full call and when, at TDs discretion they may forfeit an undercall and fold. For underbets and underraises, see Rule 43.

[Max D]

What BillM16 said.  Straight TDA has to complete to a full call.  Or as stated at TDA discretion he loses 1K.

[Dave Miller]

Max -

I thought, if given the option to call or fold and forfeit, the forfeit amount would be 400.

[Ash]

I think the forfeit amount would be 1k, because the last action is raise 2.2k and not a 400 call so we have to rely on the last action (2.2k raise). Do you agree with that?

[BillM16]

Given Rule #42B, the TD could allow player A to make a full call or forfeit the undercall. Player A has put in 1200 while facing a bet of 2200.  At the TD's discretion, player A would either put in another 1000 to make a full call or forfeit the 1200 undercall amount and fold.

[Max D]

Max -

I thought, if given the option to call or fold and forfeit, the forfeit amount would be 400.

Agreed Dave the bet was 400, not 1K.  get the change and loose the 400 if TD agrees with forfeit.

[BillM16]

Max -

I thought, if given the option to call or fold and forfeit, the forfeit amount would be 400.

Agreed Dave the bet was 400, not 1K.  get the change and loose the 400 if TD agrees with forfeit.

What if Player B raised 400, then Player C raised 400, and then Player D raised?  Does Player A get to choose which raise he's willing to forfeit? 

If Player A thought he was calling 400, why did he leave the 200 in the middle when he added the 1000 chip? Maybe Player A actually thought Player D was all-in for 1200?  Realizing that he might get away with forfeiting the undercall it would be cheaper to say he thought the bet was only 400, right?

The rule says the player forfeits the undercall - it doesn't say that the player gets to claim an undercall amount of their choosing.  Of course, the TD has the right to do most anything reasonable according to Rule #1. But I think the intent of Rule #42 is to encourage players to follow the action without punishing too severely an occasional and significant error.  Rule #42 does this without overtly punishing other players who were paying attention.  The innocent attentive players deserve chips voluntarily put in the pot by unwary players! That is a fundamental characteristic of winning poker.  But an OCCASIONAL unwary player may SOMETIMES deserve a break and may not be forced to make a full call under Rule #42.  That forfeiture should not include a further discount (or change) from the undercall chips put into the pot.  Interpretation of the TDA Rules should never reward bad play while punishing good play.

[Nick C]

I've been disputing these unintentional bets ever since I joined the TDA. I also believe, my decision would depend on whether or not Player B reacted to Player A's mistake. If the "errant" call were recognized before action continued I might allow Player A to retract all but his already committed 200.

This should get some replies!