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POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: Kenjanis on November 02, 2013, 05:40:15 PM

Title: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Kenjanis on November 02, 2013, 05:40:15 PM
I'm new to this forum and I would like some feedback.  I had a situation in a  NLHE tournament where the betting was folded to the highjack who just called, the button was talking to another player and the small blind acted out of turn and called and the big blind checked.  Then the button decided that he wanted to raise.  The TD was called and ruled that the button could act and he raised.  I contended that substantial action had taken place sighting rule 38b. Should the TD have had the button muck his hand?  Should he let him just call? Or is the raise correct?  Thanks
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 02, 2013, 07:21:35 PM
Hello Ken: Awesome question. IMO here are the facts on this situation in light of the debate at TDA Summit VI and the new resulting rule 38B:

1. FIRST ask if the button had reasonable time to follow the action and defend his right to act, as is stipulated in Rule 38-B. If this situation happened "in a blur", where a reasonable person would get trapped as he did, then use Rule 1. The button is still at the mercy of the TD, but the rule clearly allows for the decision the TD made here IF the button did not have reasonable time.

But, from your description it sounds more like the button was distracted, not paying attention so...

2. IF you decide the skipped player had reasonable time to follow the action and act to defend his action then....
3. There is substantial action out of turn because you have "two players acting, at least one with chips (the SB)"...
4. The action of the SB and BB is now binding.

On ALL of the above there is widespread agreement, and it applies regardless of....

5. "The TD will be called to render a decision on how to handle the skipped hand..."   This is where there is not yet consensus and if TDA Summit VI debate is any indication, there may not ever be consensus. There's a large group of very intelligent and experienced TDs who favor killing the hand and there's an equal group that favors allowing the skipped player to just call the action to him (the BB), thereby keeping him in the hand and locking in the out-of-turn action.

Thanks for raising the issue, this may be the first thread with example on SA OOT since the Summit... I did modify the title of your thread so it's clear as to the specific subject in question.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 02, 2013, 07:57:02 PM
kenjanis,

 With the situation you described, I would allow the skipped player to call only...because substantial action passed him by. If the dealer burns and turns before the skipped player reacts...then I would rule his hand dead. Substantial action has to be respected in these situations, unless (of course) the player is stalling and/or is deliberate in allowing the action to pass him by. That's the ruling I would have enforced. I always felt that a quick, crisp response, is the best way to settle the mishap. Be firm and convey confidence in your decision and encourage the dealer to proceed without rehashing what transpired.

 I can not understand how anyone would consider killing the skipped player's hand. Therefore I will put myself in the "group" that favors allowing the skipped player to just call.

 An interesting little twist to your situation, let's say; the hijack player calls and before the button reacts the BB checks (OOT) before the SB calls...Would you allow the button all options?
I would.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Tristan on November 02, 2013, 08:17:01 PM
I would be in the other group.  I would have made the button's hand dead provided they had ample time to try and stop the action.  Not only because it is our house rule, but also because I don't like that the player gains all the additional information before they act...plus then we lose our measuring point.  After substantial action, at what point do we stop allowing them the opportunity to call? 

Example:  6 players in the hand on the flop.  A bets, B calls, (C is skipped), D raises, E raises, F calls, A calls, B raises, and we now notice C has cards...can they call?  At what point are they responsible to stop the action and point out the error?  What if they get skipped more than once in the same round?  Is their hand dead then?


An interesting little twist to your situation, let's say; the hijack player calls and before the button reacts the BB checks (OOT) before the SB calls...Would you allow the button all options?
I would.

I would too...there was only one action behind 2 skipped players.  Not substantial action.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 02, 2013, 09:19:43 PM


5. ..... and there's an equal group that favors allowing the skipped player to just call the action to him (the BB), thereby keeping him in the hand and locking in the out-of-turn action.


And just to clarify, this latter group draws some of their position from a classic if obscure line in RRoP:
12. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act.

Section 3: General Poker, Betting and Raising, Paragraph 12.

Bob Ciaffone clarified in correspondence several years ago that by "lose the right to act" he was referring to losing the right to take aggressive action, rather than having a dead hand. Also he uses 3 players acting which can be seen as his version of substantial action in these cases, whereas the TDA uses 2 players (one with chips), or any 3 actions for S.A.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 03, 2013, 10:34:51 AM
Mike,

 Based on what Bob Ciaffone said, would you agree that the skipped player's hand should not be killed?
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 03, 2013, 11:03:47 AM
Mike,

 Based on what Bob Ciaffone said, would you agree that the skipped player's hand should not be killed?
 

I would definitely agree with it IF I'm in the camp that does not favor killing hands in these situations. But, as previously posted, there are two camps within the TDA on this issue and it's my impression that endless debate about it will not change these fundamental positions.  So as to give respect to both camps, I deliberately withheld my personal preference on the matter from the prior posts.

I'd be curious to hear from others present at Summit VI whether they think there's a likelihood a consensus will be reached on this, or whether we'll have to "agree to disagree" on this one.

In the mean time, unless and until a consensus ever is reached I think it's advisable to put into your house rules which way your house is going to be rule in these situations. Perhaps some houses may not want to do that, instead withholding determination and basing rulings on the totality of facts in each separate case.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Tristan on November 03, 2013, 11:29:19 AM
I would support some kind of a compromise.  I would just like to see a point in which the skipped player is responsible for speaking up.

Example:  When faced with a bet, a skipped player will be held to non-aggressive action if skipped by TDA definition of substantial action, but the hand is dead if MORE than substantial action occurs provided the player had ample time to stop the action.  More includes any player action beyond substantial action OR a dealer burning and turning after substantial action. 
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: K-Lo on November 03, 2013, 12:52:16 PM
I am with Tristan.  In my view, the OOT player must have some obligation to point out that he is being skipped without delay.  I understand that the OOT bettors are also to blame, and that we generally do not want to kill hands, but at some point, the onus of pointing out the error must fall back to the skipped player.  In the example, even though the next street has not been dealt, the skipped player has way much more information than I think he should be entitled to, particularly if he didn't bother to speak up right away once the SB called.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 03, 2013, 03:03:42 PM
Tristan and Ken,

 The SB player acted out of turn...and the BB checked. There was no mention of a lapse of time. This is covered by Robert's Rules. I realize RRoP is for cash games but we constantly refer to it when we are undecided about tournament rulings. The SB acted out of turn, followed by the BB who was misled by the SB, who was not corrected by the dealer or the skipped player. If the dealer was paying attention to the action; he would have corrected the OOT SB...that did not happen. If we could somehow decipher that the skipped player was deliberate in allowing the action to pass him by, then of course a penalty or warning would be in order. However, until the dealer burns and turns, there is no way to kill the skipped player's hand...per Robert's Rules.

 Tristan, as far as going beyond substantial action (with more than two or three player's) I don't feel that would ever work because most of the time the action is down to too few player's and often it's head to head. That also brings me to another one of my unanswered questions from long ago: Are we to recognize the dealer as one of the persons included for substantial action, when he condones an out of turn?

 The original post, would never warrant killing the skipped player's hand...not in any poker game I've ever played in, house game, or casino, cash or tournament.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: K-Lo on November 03, 2013, 04:45:25 PM
There was no mention of a lapse of time.

This is a piece of information that I feel needs to be considered. 

I am fine with allowing him to have all options available if he spoke up without delay. 
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Tristan on November 03, 2013, 06:37:11 PM
I would have made the button's hand dead provided they had ample time to try and stop the action. 

Yep yep.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 06, 2013, 04:15:32 AM
Ken,

 If it is determined that a player, next to act, intentionally allows action to pass him by...his hand should be ruled dead! However, the skipped player should be allowed all options if the wrong player bets, or the dealer directs the action to the wrong player. When substantial action follows the skipped player, he will have a live hand but can take no aggressive action.

 This is why the dealer must be counted as a person when considering "substantial action." Without counting the dealer, substantial action is impossible during heads-up play! When a betting round is complete, the dealer should "tap and burn" before turning any board card. If a player were skipped, this is the time to speak! Failure to announce that you were skipped before the board is turned will result in a dead hand.

 This leads to another situation that occurs far too often. The last player to act, on any betting round, must also speak up before the dealer burns and turns...however, his hand will not be killed and the premature board card, or cards, must be re-dealt.

 Mike, earlier I asked you how you felt about what Bob Ciaffone said and you said you agreed but then went on to tell us about the other camp. Which camp are you in?
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 06, 2013, 09:55:02 AM
Mike, earlier I asked you how you felt about what Bob Ciaffone said and you said you agreed but then went on to tell us about the other camp. Which camp are you in?


Ahhh... the SAOOT pros and cons...

Bottom line is I'm generally in the Ciaffone camp at the first moment SA occurs, i.e. when the 2nd of 2 players with chips acts, or a 3rd checker / folder. The reason is it just seems too harsh for my liking to kill the hand immediately. Because if one less player had acted, we would look at the skipped player as a victim. But when one more player acts (and triggers SA), we give the skipped player the death penalty. The more reasonable sequence for my tastes, is victim > no aggressive action > death penalty. Obviously I use the TDA definition of SA, not RRoP's.

This said, I 100% recognize the other camp that prefers killing a skipped hand in SAOOT cases. These are camps with strong convictions rooted in "philosophy" of poker and objectively you can't say one is better than the other...

For the moment venues should put into their house rules how SAOOT is treated, so there's no surprises, this does happen if infrequently.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: K-Lo on November 06, 2013, 11:11:42 AM
When substantial action follows the skipped player, he will have a live hand but can take no aggressive action.

Ultimately, I think it will be more practical to leave it to the discretion of the TD to determine whether the fairest decision will be to allow the skipped player to act with all options available, allow the skipped player to act but not take aggressive action, or to have the hand killed.  I can envision situations in which any of these rulings would, in my mind, be the fairest solution.

I am fine with using the minimum actions in the definition of substantial action as repreesenting a first "goal post"... If substantial action has just occurred, in most cases, the skipped player would lose his right to take aggressive action unless the out of turn actions occurred so quickly that it would be unfair to penalize the skipped player.

But, as Tristan suggests, I agree that we should be open to the possibility of a harsher outcome (e.g. Killing the hand) if the action has gone significantly past that first goal post.  I do not favor a set rule that guarantees the skipped player's hand will be live.  For example, I think there is a big difference if there has been a call-fold and the skipped player speaks up, and if there has been six subsequent folds before the skipped player speaks up, despite the fact that both situations would constitute substantial action and the dealer has still not dealt the next street in both cases. 

Substantial action PLUS further delay must be met with more serious consequences for the skipped player; even if the skipped player claims he did not intentionally allow the OOT actions to occur, at some point, as more and more actions beyond the initial goal post occur, his excuse loses more and more credibility.

In summary, it may be that any new rule will need to come about from a combination of the approaches that we have discussed.  However, I don't think that a set rule that keeps the hand live based solely on whether substantial action has or has not occurred is a complete solution.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 07, 2013, 02:05:59 PM
Thanks to all for this interesting discussion. My thoughts on this situation are largely based on the expected skill of the dealer. I find it very difficult that so many TD's and floorpersons are having these problems. An adequate dealer should know who's bet it is, and should correct the OOT immediately.


 One more try: When are we going to recognize the dealer as part of Substantial Action? I can't count how many times I've asked that same question...come on...somebody, anybody?
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 08, 2013, 11:03:29 PM
And even for members of the "lenient" or Ciaffone camp, there needs to be some point at which the skipped hand is dead on the current betting round. At Summit VI we kicked around: substantial action plus one, or SA occurs and the action returns to the skipped player... In the interest of consistent rulings, for the moment whatever the policy, it should be clearly stated in house rules, or the TD should definitely have it in mind if the house leaves it up to TDs discretion.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 09, 2013, 09:54:45 AM
I'm going to try and ask a simple question, again...but in a different way. Three player's remain; dealer burns and turns before last to act player calls. In this scenario, the "skipped" player is skipped by the dealer. You're not going to kill his hand...are you? This is a basic procedure for every cardroom I've ever worked. The board can not stand and must be re-dealt according to the "street" in progress. I mention this because it would offer no support to killing a hand after substantial action, and certainly no possibility of SA + 1...

 The perfect scenario, (to get my point across) is; Multiple player's: First to act bets, next player calls, next player is skipped by last to act and the dealer burns and turns. In this case, only one player has acted after the skipped player. Do you feel the skipped player's hand should be killed? Or does the premature board get re-dealt?

 I've questioned this procedure for years... without a firm reply. I know how I would handle both situations but, I know others will proceed differently.

 I believe my examples point out the need for dealers to be recognized, as one of the persons included whenever we consider substantial action.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: K-Lo on November 09, 2013, 11:25:51 AM
I know what you are trying to get at ... Have the dealer's actions count as one action for the purpose of substantial action. 

Let me add one more scenario to consider,  a purely hypothetical situation... 4 players in the hand, first player bets, player 2 folds, and player 3 calls.  Player 4 has yet to act and is thinking.  Dealer forgets about him because he is in seat 1, but because the pot is so big, the dealer is taking his time.  Let's assume for the sake of argument, the dealer pauses and then says "we are now down to 2 players... The pot is right.. I am going to deal the turn card now..." He pauses, raps the table, pauses, burns a card, pauses... And then deals the turn.  It is only at this point that player 1 speaks up and says he hasn't acted yet. Would everyone apply the rule strictly here and redo the turn?

Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 09, 2013, 11:58:05 AM
Three player's remain; dealer burns and turns before last to act player calls. In this scenario, the "skipped" player is skipped by the dealer. You're not going to kill his hand...are you?
No, because betting is not complete, see RRoP.

I mention this because it would offer no support to killing a hand after substantial action, and certainly no possibility of SA + 1...
Betting is not complete in your first scenario above. However, if SA or SA+1 had occurred prior to dealing the next card, betting would have been complete, and there is virtually 100% support expressed at Summit VI for killing the hand if SA has occurred PLUS the dealer deals the next card. The reason that wasn't written into the TDA 2013 Rules is that it might leave the impression that is the only situation in which a skipped hand is dead if there is SAOOT, and as previously discussed in this thread, there are two camps, one of which will kill the hand on the current betting round if SA occurs... and permutations that will kill it on the current round if SA plus some additional action occurs.

The perfect scenario, (to get my point across) is; Multiple player's: First to act bets, next player calls, next player is skipped by last to act and the dealer burns and turns. In this case, only one player has acted after the skipped player. Do you feel the skipped player's hand should be killed? Or does the premature board get re-dealt?
IMO the board is re-dealt b/c betting is not complete on the prior round. So in this case "dealer does not count as action".

I believe my examples point out the need for dealers to be recognized, as one of the persons included whenever we consider substantial action.
On the contrary, IMO your examples point out the need for the dealer not to be recognized as an acting player for SA (i.e. the dealer is not the "second player with chips" or the 3rd checker/folder"). What everyone agrees with is that if SAOOT occurs, those bets are binding. THEN if the dealer deals the next card, the skipped hand is dead. But in that situation the dealer is not counted as one of the actors to establish SA, he is in addition to SA.

This is a separate issue from whether (and if so when), a skipped hand is killed on the current round.

Back to dealing the next card counting as part of SA: personally I think including "dealer is part of SA" is just an unnecessary complication. RRoP clearly states in at least two places that "the card will be re-dealt if betting has not been completed". It's just easier to leave it there.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 09, 2013, 12:01:48 PM
I know what you are trying to get at ... Have the dealer's actions count as one action for the purpose of substantial action.  

Let me add one more scenario to consider,  a purely hypothetical situation... 4 players in the hand, first player bets, player 2 folds, and player 3 calls.  Player 4 has yet to act and is thinking.  Dealer forgets about him because he is in seat 1, but because the pot is so big, the dealer is taking his time.  Let's assume for the sake of argument, the dealer pauses and then says "we are now down to 2 players... The pot is right.. I am going to deal the turn card now..." He pauses, raps the table, pauses, burns a card, pauses... And then deals the turn.  It is only at this point that player 1 speaks up and says he hasn't acted yet. Would everyone apply the rule strictly here and redo the turn?

Ken: In general I would... however I recognize in your example this is egregious failure to follow the action, and TD has perfect latitude to declare the skipped hand dead under Rule 1 in the best interest of the game and under Rule 2 failure to follow action and protect your right to act, etc.. In general, just me, maintaining the sanctity of the rule sometimes requires some tolerance of outlier cases... it's a TD's discretionary call here...
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 09, 2013, 06:36:11 PM
Ken,

 This is getting ridiculous, his hand is dead...no question about it. He was given every opportunity to act.

Mike,

 Your suggest that dealers should not count for substantial action...can you explain how substantial action would ever apply in head to head action? Or even three way action?
When do we re-deal for a premature deal? Can you explain?
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 09, 2013, 07:13:43 PM
,Mike, Your suggest that dealers should not count for substantial action...can you explain how substantial action would ever apply in head to head action?
I don't think SA does apply in head-to-head action. What DOES apply in heads-up is new TDA Rule 37... if you make any gesture to call any bet heads-up, and you undercall, you must make a full call.

, Or even three way action?
In 3-way action you have Players A, B, and C. Post-flop, for example, action is first on Player A however B bets out of turn and C calls... you have two players with chips, so there is SA-OOT in that situation.

When do we re-deal for a premature deal? Can you explain?
I explained that before, but will repeat: we re-deal when the betting of the prior betting round is not complete.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 09, 2013, 09:56:53 PM
Mike,
 
 When a player is skipped and the dealer burns and turns, would you say the action was incomplete? If so, when would you re-deal? You've lost me again. ???
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 09, 2013, 10:45:37 PM
Mike,
 
 When a player is skipped and the dealer burns and turns, would you say the action was incomplete? If so, when would you re-deal? You've lost me again. ???
Nick, sorry but these questions seem interminable and we're deviating from the original post. The OP does not involve a situation with any dealer action....

You say it is one of your favorite topics and you can't get an answer on it... that being "the dealer counts as action"... or doesn't count as action, I'm not clear which you support... So, why not start a thread on that topic and make the case for your position and what you advocate? Are you proposing a new rule, a change to a rule, or ... you could start a thread with a title such as "Does Dealer Count as Action in Substantial Action"... then everyone can focus on it.

As to your new example quoted above, IMO per 2 citations in RRoP, there's one question to ask, exactly the same as in my Replies 19 and 22 above..." is the betting on the prior round complete or not?"... if it isn't, then the card was dealt prematurely UNLESS substantial action had occurred on the prior round..... so, with that in mind, let's see, "player is skipped and dealer burns and turns"... seems pretty clear that the betting was not completed...

Now, if substantial action occurred then the dealer burned and turned, the hand is dead per widespread agreement on that subject at TDA Summit VI, but SA did not occur in this situation. That a skipped hand is dead if SAOOT occurs and the next card is dealt was not written into the rules because it could leave the impression that's the only case of SAOOT where a hand is killed, and there are two camps on that as discussed previously, so treatment of such skipped hands is left to TD discretion at this time.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 10, 2013, 07:40:24 PM
Mike,

 This is one of my posts from over a year ago. My feelings have not changed.

Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2012, 09:47:22 AM »
Tristan,

 I like the way your house rules give example's that cover specific situations. I still believe there are common occurrences that are still not covered. For example:
               a. The player that is skipped by the dealer when directing action.
               b. The player in the last position, that is skipped by the dealer.
I will say that the house dealer must always be counted, as one of the persons, when considering substantial action.


 This is also from the same thread: What is your definition of substantial action? Two or more players? Is the dealer one of those persons?


Here's another unanswered question from last year:  Can the OOT be backed-up to the proper bettor, thus correcting the action, or once a player bets OOT Rule #35 must be enforced.

On the subject of Substantial Action from over a year ago: "K-Lo What do you think of my suggestions?" K-Lo's response:
I like them actually.  It is clear that you have put a lot of thought into it.  It explicitly sets out situations that you might otherwise have to address using Rule 1.

What about your push to have the Dealer's action count as substantial action?  e.g. unless it is clear that the players have not yet had a reasonable chance to stop a board card(s) from being prematurely dealt, the dealer's rap & tap, burn, & dealing of the board cards should in itself constitute substantial action.

 
  There have been many times that we've discussed the dealer's involvement when considering substantial action.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: MikeB on November 10, 2013, 08:08:39 PM
Nick: Okay sounds like you're proposing that the dealer count as a player for purposes of SA, yes? (Curious, do you see them counting with same weight as a player with chips or as a checker / folder... and/or as Ken suggests, as SA unto themselves under certain circumstances?) Regardless, it's not currently a TDA rule so it's a suggestion for a new rule...  For suggesting new rules, it's advisable to start a thread in the new rules suggestion category here: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?board=36.

...then you'll have one central place where the topic can be explored...

When setting up a suggestion for a new rule it is also useful to link to threads that might contain some incidental discussion of the proposal. So, you could set up a new suggestion on "Should dealer count as part of substantial action", and link to those excerpts you quoted, and to this thread.

Regards,
Mike.
Title: Re: Substantial Action out of turn: How to treat the skipped hand?
Post by: Nick C on November 11, 2013, 08:08:33 AM
Thanks, Mike. I'll think this through and submit my suggestion.