PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: Brian Vickers on September 05, 2013, 10:59:36 PM
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http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forum/index.php?showtopic=146885 (http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forum/index.php?showtopic=146885)
Hardest rule to enforce logistically without looking like a jerk. Goes against natural order of dealing.
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Another new rule that sucks! The way I see it: that's two Summits in a row that added more controversy to rules, than solutions to some old ones that still need fixing.
I fought on the forum for two years trying to change Accepted Action. It was a waste of time. I'm sure the First Card Off Rule will remain as well. Yet no one has ever explained; what terrible happening occurred that would warrant, or justify the need for Accepted Action, or the change from last card dealt to first card off!
Thanks Brian...at least you came forward and voiced your honest opinion. For that I give you credit. We need more members like you that will speak up when they don't agree with a change, instead of always accepting every new rule...well, just because someone said they should. :(
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I think the comments to the post are more telling. Clearly, opinions on this issue are split. What I want to know is whether he was the only one standing? And if so, and if it is not a big deal, why isn't everybody else standing?
I do think the dealer may have been a bit over zealous here, but I am not 100% convinced that the situation wasn't contrived to create drama.
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There's many who agree.... But also many who don't.
IMO, this is one of the more objective opinion threads:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/seat-rule-dnegs-whining-1368879/
Currently at 8 pages and an objective count of the posts is clearly in support of the new rule. Last I checked yesterday evening it was 43 in favor, 9 opposed, and about 10 neutral. Those figures can be off somewhat depending on your interpretation of the post itself, but they aren't far off.
Regardless of where you stand on the rule it shouldn't be lost that now, wherever you play in the world, there is one common standard... a major step forward in itself.
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Mike,
I'm sorry but, I don't understand your last line: "Regardless of where you stand on the rule it shouldn't be lost that now, wherever you play in the world, there is one common standard... a major step forward in itself."
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.... establishing one common standard worldwide, rather than one standard in North America and another everywhere else is a major goal of the TDA membership. It helps players who participate in tournaments all over the world know what to expect, it helps traveling dealers and floor staff have one set of procedures to enforce, not two or three or more.... that's really the reason the TDA started in the first place: different rules everywhere made for alot of confusion.... hence:
"Regardless of where you stand on the rule it shouldn't be lost that now, wherever you play in the world, there is one common standard... a major step forward in itself." So it's important to ask: "do I prefer one rule or two on this?"
....And another thing not to be lost: there are now thousands of "tournament hours" played with the first card rule. How many Poker Stars Live events have there been over the past three years? And the players have adapted, it isn't like this is an untried experiment...
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Okay Mike,
I finally figured it out. The First Card Off Rule was introduced as a diversion! This would shift all the discussion and negativity away from; the more important rule that should have been addressed...Accepted Action! :D
I'm done complaining for now. I just hope we don't start messing with any other old standards. I woke up in the middle of the night...from a dream. In my dream, I was at the next TDA Summit. During the Summit, it was suggested that all hands would be dealt counterclockwise! :o I was screaming...but, nobody heard me! Shortly thereafter, the new rule was introduced! Still dreaming; I attempted to run to the table where the board members were assembled, fell from my bed hit my head on the dresser and remained in a vegetated state for the rest of my days. I never did respond on the Discussion Forum again. I vaguely remember during rehab; a nurse holding up some playing cards and asking which was higher, a card that looked real colorful with a ladies face top and bottom, or the card with the big red letter A at the top and bottom with a heart in the middle....I never did play the game called poker again. :'(
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Not only I love the first card rule but I used from one year to slowly introduce it in my region's card rooms and casinos DURING THE HAND BY HAND (to stop the crowd from walking around between the tables during this sensible moment)! It was a marvelous innovation that all my managers & dealers loved! Because I'm sorry Mr Negreanu: I agree that we must listen the players BUT THE PLAYERS MUST ALSO LISTEN TO US IF THEY WANT US TO MAKE A CLEAN JOB IN THEIR OWN INTEREST!
8)
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Not only I love the first card rule but I used from one year to slowly introduce it in my region's card rooms and casinos DURING THE HAND BY HAND (to stop the crowd from walking around between the tables during this sensible moment)! It was a marvelous innovation that all my managers & dealers loved! Because I'm sorry Mr Negreanu: I agree that we must listen the players BUT THE PLAYERS MUST ALSO LISTEN TO US IF THEY WANT US TO MAKE A CLEAN JOB IN THEIR OWN INTEREST!
8)
Yes! :)
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I like the rule as well.
I see a lot of hands walking around as a TD; I know others could see them as well.
Also, I can remember that feeling as a dealer where you make eye contact with the person walking back to the table. Realizing in your head that unless you slow down a bit, they will be too late. Slowing down. Not because of favoritism, per se, because you don't want to look like a ****.
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I like the rule as well.
I see a lot of hands walking around as a TD; I know others could see them as well.
Also, I can remember that feeling as a dealer where you make eye contact with the person walking back to the table. Realizing in your head that unless you slow down a bit, they will be too late. Slowing down. Not because of favoritism, per se, because you don't want to look like a ****.
+1 8)
Still with respect for the opinion of the original poster.
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+1 for the like camp, any player that I have asked about it says it's the correct way to go too.
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As I recall, when we voted on this rule we specifically said that if a Player was "within reach of his chair" that his hand would NOT be mucked.
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As I recall, when we voted on this rule we specifically said that if a Player was "within reach of his chair" that his hand would NOT be mucked.
Agreed. Keep in mind, we only heard one side of the story here.
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Another interesting thread on the subject at the Home Poker Tourney forum:
http://forums.homepokertourney.com/index.php/topic,28354.0.html
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An interesting development... WSOP has confirmed they will not be adopting the rule.
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Ken,
Can you be more specific? Are you saying that the WSOP is going back to the last hole card dealt, instead of the first card off? If so, where does that leave us?
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Yes, they are retaining the previous rule (last card dealt), and I assume it will essentially be part of their "house" rules.
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Ken,Is this the current rule for the WSOP:
80. At Your Seat: A participant must be at his or her seat by the time all participants have been dealt complete initial hands to have a live hand.
Participants must be at their seats to call the clock as described in Rule 78 “At your seat” is defined as being within reach or touch of your chair.
I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to when you say "house rules?" I'm asking you because it appears as though no one else has anything to add. How does Jack Effel feel about this turn of events? Can anyone tell us what occurred that would result in dropping the first card off?
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What I mean is that they will keep their rule as it was for this (and previous years), and not adopt the new TDA rule. It wasn't Jack Effel'a decision i don't think, and I am not sure how he feels about it. Perhaps I am wrong though and this is only a rumour... Or maybe it is just for WSOP Europe for now...
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Are you kidding me? There is no one on the board that can give us a heads-up on this?
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Somebody better explain this or else the inclusion of the new BOD members intending to get more consistency in the rules is a complete joke. And that somebody ought to be Jack Effel as he is the WSOP representative on the BOD. Granted, my understanding of Jack's position is that he is not the sole and final decision maker for the WSOP rules, but regardless the TDA is owed an explanation. OR maybe Daniel carries more weight than his photographs seem to show.
Chet
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WOOOOW!!! Are you all sure? How can I make this new TDA rule work in my tournaments if all the guys say that the WSOP WILL NOT apply it?
???
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Mike B, somebody, come on...it's been days since we've heard anything.
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Just to stir things up some more... If the rule were to be changed back to the way it was, I think you would almost have to explicitly establish that player are required to protect their hands by either not looking at their cards until all cards have been dealt or to otherwise protect them from being seen by players returning to the table... There has to be some way to address the "inadvertent peeking" issue.
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WSOP and WPT Borgata doesn't apply the first card rule too.
I think we should add House rules apply with this one too...
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Ken,
I think you can still "peek" even if you're at your seat, don't you? I go back to my original complaint; not one person on this forum ever mentioned a change being needed (last card dealt), at any time prior to the 2013 Summit. So we picked up a few new 5 star members on the board of director's, and the only person we ever hear from is Mike Bishop. Without Mike, there would be no TDA.
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Mike B, somebody, come on...it's been days since we've heard anything.
Nick, I heard this too and could not find any "news" sources or articles about it or even twitter blogs. However, I did find a podcast where Ty Stewart specifically says that while "it's not written stone, but we are NOT going to use it in WSOPE or Circuit or at the 2014 WSOP". I paraphrased Ty here. This is a Link to the Podcast (http://www.pokernews.com/news/2013/09/pokernews-podcast-episode-180-man-love-for-justin-timberlake-16331.htm). His statements regarding FCD (First Card Dealt - I think First Card Off The Deck is way too lengthy as FCOTD, blah) can be found at 36:28 of the interview. I downloaded it as well in case it gets deleted later on.
It's a good interview if you want to find out what WSOP.com (online) is doing and how it's positioning itself within the market with the online launch.
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Hello Thomas,
Always good to hear from you. I just listened to the podcast with Ty Stewart...seems pretty clear to me that they will not be using the first card off rule. I also found his mention of "questioning the origin of the rule."
It's no secret that I've opposed a few rules that have been adopted over the last couple summit's. The reasons are not only because I don't like them. I also don't like the way they were introduced without any prior discussion. Suggesting a proposal for a new rule should be discussed long before it is introduced at the TDA Summit. If we can't utilize this Forum to discuss, thoroughly, a proposal or suggestion for a rule change...we will continue to lose credibility. Introducing another controversial rule, and telling the poker community that we have to wait two more years to correct it is unacceptable. Besides, I also have a professional responsibility, to my student dealers, that they receive the best training possible. It's time some of the rulemakers listen to reason on some of these issues instead of taking "the my way, or the highway" approach. To make matter's worse, when the heated debates ensue...the responsible person or persons, are nowhere to be found! We have members on the TDA board of directors that haven't been heard from in months...some in years...and others...never!
Mike Bishop, it's time to take a good look at this and consider a change before the 2013 Version 2.0 is released. Waiting for 2015 is not in anyone's best interest.
Nick Ciavarella