PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: Luca P. on September 30, 2012, 06:55:26 AM

hi folks,
I would like to run a PL Omaha tourney.
Problem is the slowness on counting the pot and subsequent pot raises.
We all know it's pot + bet + call, but do you know any faster methods?

Hi Luca:
You might want to look at this earlier thread... we discussed some shortcuts for determining potsized raises in PLO http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=613.0
In general, I think that {Total wager=3x bet faced + remaining wagers behind bet faced + pot} works in most situations.
K

{Total wager=3x bet faced + remaining wagers behind bet faced + pot} works in most situations.
This. There really is no easy way other than this. All dealers will be rough until they get used to it. :\

Hello folks, I'm sorry to dig up an old thread, need another clarification on PLO
We are in a cashgame hand, PLO 1$2$ / 5handed
SB posts 1$
BB posts 2$
UTG puts straddle 4$
CutOff folds
BTN Folds
SB raise pot 14 up to 15 (right? 2+4+4+4 plus his SB posted)
BB calls 13 up to 15 (13+his BB posted)
UTG raise pot 60 up to 64 (right? pot(30+his straddle 4)+15+15)
[/color]
My question is: if we have a player who has already acted with a bet/call/raise, his bet/call/raise come into play when calculating the pot raise for him?

LucaP,
My answer is yes to what you have calculated. I added a little twist with the raise amounts. For some reason, in PL we rarely mention these amounts.
This is the formula that I introduced 3 years ago:
I want to add the following FORMULA that should be used to determine the maximum allowable bet for potlimit. Any player facing a bet, may raise 3 times the largest bet required for a call, plus the remaining trail, plus the pot. Example: Pot size 100, Player A bets 50, Player B goes allin for 20, Player C wants to raise “pot.”
Answer: Three times 50+20+100=270.
Formula works for any player when it is their turn to act, even the under the gun position preflop. Example: Blinds $5 and $10. UTG bets “pot.” Three times the Big Blind plus the Small Blind. Three times $10+$5=$35. PLEASE NOTE: The small blind is sometimes counted as a completed bet to the Big Blind, this will allow the “pot bet” to increase to $40.
SB $1 BB $2 UTG straddles to $4 amount. To calculate a pot size raise by the SB: three times $4 = $12 + 1+$2 =$15 ($11 raise)
BB calls $13 more at this point…SB has $15…BB has $15…UTG has $4 facing a $15 bet. If we follow the formula: three times $15 = $45 + $15 +$4…The $15 and the $4 are the “string” of bets remaining.
So the total amount (pot size bet) to the UTG straddler would be $64…A $49 raise!

Ok ok nice then, thank you!
Yeah I usually train my dealers to both of the two formulas, sometimes they are faster with one, and sometimes with the other one!

Luca, do you use Bravo Clock for your tournaments? If so, what I have done is precalculated the pot size opening bet for every blind level and put that under the "bringin" field. This way the dealer can look up and know that if it's 150300 blinds, an opening pot size bet is 1050. If there are limpers first, just add the limpers bets into the calculation: three players limp in for 300 each, add 900 to the 1050, etc. Found that it's helped in tournaments when the blinds are odd increments (like 75150, 15003000, etc.)
Also, 7x the SB might be easier than 3.5x the BB for some.

Luca, do you use Bravo Clock for your tournaments? If so, what I have done is precalculated the pot size opening bet for every blind level and put that under the "bringin" field. This way the dealer can look up and know that if it's 150300 blinds, an opening pot size bet is 1050. If there are limpers first, just add the limpers bets into the calculation: three players limp in for 300 each, add 900 to the 1050, etc. Found that it's helped in tournaments when the blinds are odd increments (like 75150, 15003000, etc.)
Also, 7x the SB might be easier than 3.5x the BB for some.
Brian thank you for the hint!
unfortunately we don't use Bravo system, but I'll try a workaround for my clock!

Right or wrong?
1. HU blinds 200/400  sb (button) raise pot 1200
2. HU blinds 200/400  sb (button) raise pot 1400
3. Blinds 200/400  all fold  sb raise pot 1200
4. Blinds 200/400  all fold  sb raise pot 1400
5. Blinds 200/400  utg call  sb raise pot 1600
6. Blinds 200/400  utg call  sb raise pot 1800
7. Blinds 200/400  utg call and sb call  bb raise pot 1600
8. Blinds 200/400  utg call and sb call  bb raise pot 2000
RWRWRW

"Maverick"
That is a good question...or questions. The situations you've described are no different than a player already in for earlier bets on current street, facing a raise? The question is: Do we follow the existing rule...three times the bet we are facing, plus the additional string, plus the pot...or do we subtract the amount we have already pushed?
I would lean in the direction of keeping the formula intact, even though there may be arguments against it. Consider the cardrooms that allow the first UTG preflop to raise 4X the BB under the assumption that the SB has called the big. We can also consider the allowable "pot" size raise when the BB is allin for less than the required bet, it is treated as though his BB were complete.
Based on what I've mentioned, I would:
1. HU blinds 200/400  sb (button) raise pot 1200 X No
2. HU blinds 200/400  sb (button) raise pot 1400 Y Yes
3. Blinds 200/400  all fold  sb raise pot 1200 X No
4. Blinds 200/400  all fold  sb raise pot 1400 Y Yes
5. Blinds 200/400  utg call  sb raise pot 1600 X No
6. Blinds 200/400  utg call  sb raise pot 1800 Y Yes; UTG adds 400 to the string, so 3 X 400 + 400 BB +200 SB =1800
7. Blinds 200/400  utg call and sb call  bb raise pot 1600 X No
8. Blinds 200/400  utg call and sb call  bb raise pot 2000 Y Yes All three players are in for 400, so the "pot" would be 3X 400 + the remaining string of 800=2000

Right or wrong?
1. HU blinds 200/400  sb (button) raise pot 1200  Correct. Using the "hard way" calculation, button puts in his 400 which makes the total pot size 800. He now raises 800 more for a total bet of 1200
2. HU blinds 200/400  sb (button) raise pot 1400 Incorect, the 3x the bet + the rest of the pot equation won't quite work the same way here . The "3x +" rule gets you to your "total bet" but to do that you have to retract previously wagered chips first. SB takes his 200 back into his stack. Bet is 3x400+0 = 1200. Alternatively, if you bring in the first "matched" 200 into the pot, now SB is facing a bet of 200. 3x 200=600 + the 400 sitting in the pot. SB puts out 1000 more than his 200.. he has wagered 1200 total.
3. Blinds 200/400  all fold  sb raise pot 1200 Correct, this is the same as the heads up scenario
4. Blinds 200/400  all fold  sb raise pot 1400 Incorrect, see above.
5. Blinds 200/400  utg call  sb raise pot 1600 Correct
6. Blinds 200/400  utg call  sb raise pot 1800 Incorrect
7. Blinds 200/400  utg call and sb call  bb raise pot 1600 Correct. The first 400s are all part of the pot as they are matched. BB's raise is 3x the bet he is facing (3x0) + the pot of 1200. His raise is 1200 more, 1600 total bet
8. Blinds 200/400  utg call and sb call  bb raise pot 2000 Incorrect
RWRWRW
It's important to remember that the "equation" is a shortcut for the "long way" of calculating pot size. The long way is to match the bet you are facing, now take everything that has been wagered and raise that much more. Blinds 200400 UTG says "pot." You can do 3x400+200 to get 1400 TOTAL bet or you can put the 400 in, now raise 1000 more (400 from utg, 400 from bb, 200 from sb) for a TOTAL bet of 1400.

"Maverick"
That is a good question...or questions. The situations you've described are no different that a player already in for earlier bets on current street, facing a raise? The question is: Do we follow the existing rule...three times the bet we are facing, plus the additional string, plus the pot...or do we subtract the amount we have already pushed?
I would lean in the direction of keeping the formula intact, even though there may be arguments against it. Consider the cardrooms that allow the first UTG preflop to raise 4X the BB under the assumption that the SB has called the big. We can also consider the allowable "pot" size raise when the BB is allin for less than the required bet, it is treated as though his BB were complete.
Based on what I've mentioned, I would:
1. HU blinds 200/400  sb (button) raise pot 1200 X No
2. HU blinds 200/400  sb (button) raise pot 1400 Y Yes
3. Blinds 200/400  all fold  sb raise pot 1200 X No
4. Blinds 200/400  all fold  sb raise pot 1400 Y Yes
5. Blinds 200/400  utg call  sb raise pot 1600 X No
6. Blinds 200/400  utg call  sb raise pot 1800 Y Yes; UTG adds 400 to the string, so 3 X 400 + 400 BB +200 SB =1800
7. Blinds 200/400  utg call and sb call  bb raise pot 1600 X No
8. Blinds 200/400  utg call and sb call  bb raise pot 2000 Y Yes All three players are in for 400, so the "pot" would be 3X 400 + the remaining string of 800=2000
I'm sorry Nick, but I believe that each of these answers is incorrect.

I'm glad you disagree...now we can (possibly) resolve this issue.

Come on TD's...over 5900 views on PLO and nobody from the board can help us out? Are there any Professional Players that can chime in?
Does the potential "raiser's" "pot bet" include his partial blind as part of the "string" or not? The current formula would have to be altered if that is what we decide.

I proceed with logic:
we are assuming that, to caculate the pot raise, we must sum the pot (all the chips behind you) and 2x last biggest bet/raise.
Once you make an aggressive action or a call, your chips belong to the pot, don't they?
So on 200/400, I'm assuming that 200 and 400 are bets that no longer belong to the players, making the pot 600, so to raise I must add additional 2x400, making it 1400...

Luca P.
Thanks for your reply. I'm not using the same formula as you, but we do agree, correct?

I proceed with logic:
we are assuming that, to caculate the pot raise, we must sum the pot (all the chips behind you) and 2x last biggest bet/raise.
Once you make an aggressive action or a call, your chips belong to the pot, don't they?
So on 200/400, I'm assuming that 200 and 400 are bets that no longer belong to the players, making the pot 600, so to raise I must add additional 2x400, making it 1400...
Luca, regardless of any formula for calculating pot size, the actual method is that you match the bet you are facing and then raise everything that is now in the middle. If it's 200400, you call 200 first leaving 800 in the middle, you then raise 800 on top for a total of 1200. I am 1 million % sure.
When using the "3x plus the trail" to get to the total bet, you always take back anything you have already put out first before using the formula. So after announcing "pot" the SB takes back his 200, he's facing a bet of 400 so 3x 400 = 1200 plus everything else which is $0 (as he's taken the 200 back to his stack) either way gets you to 1200 total.
These examples were both from the previous questions that pertained to heads up play.

FWIW, I concur with Brian.

Brian,
I could understand your formula for heads up, I don't agree but I get it. I am having a problem with "you always take back anything you have already put out first before using the formula."
I will give an example and you can tell me if your statement would still apply. 200/400 PLO Six handed...on the turn, First bet 400, next four players call, Player 6 raises to 800...back to the initial bettor who wants to bet "pot," are you telling me his initial 400 is retracted before calculating the bet?

I will give an example and you can tell me if your statement would still apply. 200/400 PLO Six handed...on the turn, First bet 400, next four players call, Player 6 raises to 800...back to the initial bettor who wants to bet "pot," are you telling me his initial 400 is retracted before calculating the bet?
in my opinion, that is the same of bryan, as u can read in my first post, 4000 + pot before turn
Ignoring the rule of fast calculation that is only a consequence, the question that we have to solve is in the general calculation.
When we calculate the amount of the pot we sum our call to the previous bets. I think .. why our call is to be considered greater that it really is?
previous example, pot is (i don't count the amount of pot before turn only for semplicity):
800 call seat 1 + ***
800 raise seat 6 +
400 call seat 5 +
400 call seat 4 +
400 call seat 3 +
400 call seat 2 =
3200
So seat 1 can raise 800+3200 = 4000
*** I don't like to consider that the seat 1 has 400 in pot and then he has to add 800 more

We all know that the UTG position, preflop, is allowed the pot raise sum to 3.5 times the BB...this includes the SB. So, the question is: If action returns to the SB, do we count the "incomplete" blind when calculating the allowable amount or do we remove it from the "string"?
200/400 three players: UTG pot bet = 3 X 400 BB + 200 SB = 1400 total
200/400 headsup SB pot bet 1200 or 1400? Is it as simple as 3 X 400? Or do we include the SB?

Ok guys so, PL Omaha 5 handed, blinds 50100 postflop (pot = 600)
Player 1 bet 150
Player 2 call 150
Player 3 raise 350
Player 4 fold
Player 5 fold
> Player 1 raise pot: 1800 (first calls 200, then add all the chips in the middle 600+350+150+350)
Right?
If it's right, then we can say that
"In PL games, when a player announces "pot" and has already acted putting chips in front of him (call,raise,bet are valid actions), he must not consider his chips, and put a total (not raise up to) of three times the largest bet in that round plus the trail and the pot. His previous chips put in the pot must not be considered when calculating "pot raise""

Luca P,
I'd hate to see you change your rules until this is sorted out. When you post a blind, it is part of the pot and therefore, part of the "trail"...3 times the bet you face plus the trail plus the pot...that's the formula and I'm sticking to it.

Luca P,
I'd hate to see you change your rules until this is sorted out. When you post a blind, it is part of the pot and therefore, part of the "trail"...3 times the bet you face plus the trail plus the pot...that's the formula and I'm sticking to it.
No no I'm trying to understand, that's all.
I still consider the chips of the SB/BB and of a call/bet/raise part of the trail, but if it's not correct, then I'll apply the new way of calculating the pot

LucaP,
I'm with you on this one. We've been using the same formula for at least three years without any problems. Why complicate the procedure more than we need to. We've heard from Alessandro, KLo, Tristan and Brian...that's it. Apparently getting the bets correct is less important than adjusting the ringtones on cell phones!
I say that the blinds are part of the "trail." They can not be retracted unless that player is completing a bet or raise! Many cash games even allow the UTG raise to be 4 times the BB...they "assume" that the SB already called the BB!
I suggest that you do it the way you always have...if your players are content with your "formula" (and more importantly), they can figure it out without a calculator, ;) don't change what works for you.

I say that the blinds are part of the "trail." They can not be retracted unless that player is completing a bet or raise! Many cash games even allow the UTG raise to be 4 times the BB...they "assume" that the SB already called the BB!
In fact the situation is if I want to raise pot having already placed a bet. Do I have to consider my previous bet and my new raise as two different or the previous bet as part of the new raise?
I think it's important to make it clear, then every rule someone may be less convinced :)

Maverick,
Let's see if this helps: Three players Blinds 50/100 UTG calls the 100 BB...SB wants to raise "pot"
Using the formula: 3X the bet you are facing (100)= 300+100 BB + Your SB 50= 450
Or
Using the formula without counting your SB it's 400.
I prefer using the SB as part of the "trail" because it is already a part of the pot that can never be retracted.
I look at the SB the same as I would if in for a partial bet on a later betting round. Example: You're in for a bet, another player raises, are you going to count your initial bet from this round...or subtract it? That's what we're debating and I don't like the idea of making another change to a very simple solution to arguably, the most complex betting of any poker game in existence...Pot Limit!

Maverick,
Let's see if this helps: Three players Blinds 50/100 UTG calls the 100 BB...SB wants to raise "pot"
Using the formula: 3X the bet you are facing (100)= 300+100 BB + Your SB 50= 450
Or
Using the formula without counting your SB it's 400.
I prefer using the SB as part of the "trail" because it is already a part of the pot that can never be retracted.
I look at the SB the same as I would if in for a partial bet on a later betting round. Example: You're in for a bet, another player raises, are you going to count your initial bet from this round...or subtract it? That's what we're debating and I don't like the idea of making another change to a very simple solution to arguably, the most complex betting of any poker game in existence...Pot Limit!
The formula gets you to your total bet, you can't add the 50 because it's part of your stack and you are getting to the total amount you owe. Do it without the shortcut:
call the 50 and raise 300 more = 400 total bet. This is fact, not opinion, frankly I'm shocked that the basics of pot limit could take up two pages on this board.

Brian,
We're having the same discussion. The BOD's are too busy for us so...you can continue with your method, and I'll continue with mine. ;)

50: Pot Size & PotLimit Bets
B: Preflop a short allin blind will not affect calculation of the maximum pot limit bet. Postflop, bets are based on actual pot size.
Do I understand correctly?
PLO – 100/200
SB100
BB150 Allin
UTG – Raise Pot
calc 1: 2 x Call (200) + 150 + 100 = 650 (real calc.)
or
calc 2: 2 x Call (200) + 200 + 100 = 700 (calc where short BB not affect)
Action goes back to SB who makes a CALL.
Q. is: How much is a Pot on the flop?
a) 2 x 650 + 150 = 1450 (real pot)
b) 2 x 700 + 150 = 1550 (pot where short BB was not affect)
or
c) 2 x 700 + 200 = 1600

Pastor,
Your Question is about after the flop...at that point I would use the actual pot size. However, preflop is a different story.
The best way for me to explain is to treat the short blinds as though they were full legal bets. i.e. Pot Limit...Blinds 100 & 200...SB is allin for 75 and BB is Allin for 50...UTG should be allowed to raise to 700. The normal formula is 7x SB...or...3 1/2x BB.
I base my answer on the situation, in any game, when the UTG is facing a short BB. Unless the players are allin, the UTG must at least call the full BB.
Not sure if this helps but I see that you have had no reply so I thought I'd respond.

Thnx,
It's clear that UTG must call first (and raise) the full BB in any game.
How much is a pot for UTG+1 in your example? 3 x 700 + 50 + 75 = 2225 correct?

Pastor,
All I can tell you is; that's the way I see it. :)

Hello folks,
Sorry if I doubled someone's post, but I could not read all the 3 pages to wait for clarify situation =)
Pot limit calculation is what Brian said.
Its like in movies :
"I call you Johnny..., and I raise to ten thousands dollars !
(Crowd) : OOOOOOOOOOOWWW
Of course today it is considered as not eligible action but by these old times, guns were allowed at the tables =)
So here we go for the table :
Blinds : 100/200 Preflop
Player A : SB  100
Player B : BB  200
Player C : Calls 200
Player D : Raises Pot
The traditional howto is the following : (like in movies remember)
Player D puts the amount of the call, in this case 200, then we make the SUM of the pot so
Pot : 0 (Preflop)
A: 100
B: 200
C: 200
D: 200 (amount of call)
We get 700.
This amount is the raise, not the entire bet. So you have to add the amount of call (200) and the amount of raise (700) to a total to 900.
If we take another situation where Player A as SB raises pot, we get the following :
A : 100
B : 200
C : Calls 200
A : Raises pot
A puts the amount of the call (200) then we go to the maths
A : 200
B : 200
C : 200
and we get a 600 raise for a 800 total bet.
So we can see that prior chips do not enter in the pot calculation.
With the 3x rule, we get the same results
Case 1 : (3xC) + (A + B) > (3x 200) + (200 +100) = 900
Case 2 : (3xC) + A > (3x200) + 200 = 800
And I just saw that the original post was from 2012 :(

To speed up calculations, you need to know your Pots Tables preflop and get used to 3x factors.
Its better for you to write your own pots tables to learn it (yes like in school)
My method was to start from 1/2 blinds and calculate a whole table pot re raise.
Then I went to next blinds.
My advice is to add non conventional blinds like 4/8, 7/14, 9/18, 13/26 and 1/3 2/5.
There a very low chance that you encounter these blinds, but it will help you to get though all the maths and find some pattern in calculations.
for example :
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
1 2
2 4
3 6
4 8
5 10
6 12
7 14
8 16
9 18
10 20
Have fun :D