PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: zvjerko on February 02, 2010, 07:40:02 AM
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I am curious about movement from the big blind and had some discussions with few players when it is time to move players. Some of them said when it is time to move player, it needs to be move utg not the player who has post a big blind during shuffling. This is situation that interest me. Do you move a player who has post the BB or a player who is currently at the position UTG?
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zvjerko,
The norm is to move the person who is due to post the big blind next, so in your example it would be moving the person who is due to post the BB for the hand being shuffled.
If you go to a table and they are playing a hand it is always the next person to take the BB who would be moved
If you were moving the person who was just BB during the last hand they would have to move to the best position available at the new table, whilst moving the next BB allows placement in the worst position on the new table.
TDA rule 6 attached below
6. Balancing Tables
In flop and mixed games when balancing tables, players will be moved from the big blind to the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice. Worst position is never the small blind. The table from which a player is moved will be as specified by a predetermined procedure. In stud-only games, players will be moved by position (the last seat to open up at the short table is the seat to be filled). Play will halt on any table that is three or more players short.
Best regards
Stuart
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zvjerko,
The norm is to move the person who is due to post the big blind next, so in your example it would be moving the person who is due to post the BB for the hand being shuffled.
If you go to a table and they are playing a hand it is always the next person to take the BB who would be moved
If you were moving the person who was just BB during the last hand they would have to move to the best position available at the new table, whilst moving the next BB allows placement in the worst position on the new table.
TDA rule 6 attached below
6. Balancing Tables
In flop and mixed games when balancing tables, players will be moved from the big blind to the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice. Worst position is never the small blind. The table from which a player is moved will be as specified by a predetermined procedure. In stud-only games, players will be moved by position (the last seat to open up at the short table is the seat to be filled). Play will halt on any table that is three or more players short.
Best regards
Stuart
Stuart,
The above comment seems to be in dirrect opposition to the printed rule which you included in the post.
The rule says you move the BB even if the seat has the BB twice.
Am I missing something here? Why would you move the person who just had the BB to the best seat if the rule specifies the worst seat?
I'm not trying to be confrontational, jjst wondering why I appear to read this rule differently.
As I read the rule, and the TD in my room reads it, you take the player from the BB and put that player in the worst seat at the short handed table, EVEN if that player will get the BB twice.
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Perhaps I am missing something here too lol
taking the BB twice refers to seating the player at the new table. Moving a player who has just taken the BB on the table you are moving from was an example of why you don't take a player whom has already played a hand as BB.
"Players will be moved from the BB to the worst position" - this refers the the start of a new hand, that player would not play the current hand and instead would be moved to a new table.
At least this is how I have interpreted the TDA rule and before the TDA's inception how I handled table consolidation.
You have me thinking on this one actually on my interpretation is correct! Perhaps Jan etc could chime in with an official response.
Regards
Stuart
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So far I was moving a player who has post the big blind during shuffling and if the hand is about to be finished it would be a player who will post the big blind for the next hand.That is written in the rules as much as I understand " will be moved from the big blind". I have the rules and read them very carefully just need it to know is it " from big blind" really that what is written.
Ty all and I hope to that Jan will give us a long explanation.
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Guys: What you need to remember is there is a difference between Balancing and Breaking tables. When moving from one table to another because your table is Breaking you can be moved to ANY open position, so it is very possible to have just posted the BB and then be moved to the BB again. This should not happen if you are Balancing tables.
Generally speaking, I would move the UTG player, unless the hand has not yet been dealt.
Hope this helps!!
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Let say this: Hand is shuffling and then there is situation to balance the tables and the blinds are posted and you move a UTG not the big blind who has place his chips for blind. That is what you saying? I am only curious for this typical situation.
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Let say this: Hand is shuffling and then there is situation to balance the tables and the blinds are posted and you move a UTG not the big blind who has place his chips for blind. That is what you saying? I am only curious for this typical situation.
What I am saying is that if the deal has not started on the table from which I am going to move a player, I would take the player who is supposed to have the BB. In my opinion, it doesn't make any difference if the chips are on the table, he/she can pick them up or if the shuffle has started, what makes the difference (to me) is whether the deal has been started. If it has been started, I would tell the UTG player that he/she has to move to Table X, Seat Y as soon as he/she has completed play for that hand.
Hope that helps!!
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ditto chet's response,
I would use the same standard for balancing tables.
Whilst the first riffle or pressing the button marks the start of a new hand, that hand has not begun until the first card is physically dealt.
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Well, now it is quite clear. I also prefer this way to move players. If the hand is started then the utg will be moved as soon as he finished with his play. No more doubts. Thank you all for yours opinions.
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Well, now it is quite clear. I also prefer this way to move players. If the hand is started then the utg will be moved as soon as he finished with his play. No more doubts. Thank you all for yours opinions.
Actually you should move them after the hand is complete. If that table loses a player during that hand of play, then they will be short and you may have to move another player. Always wait until the hand is complete.
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You are very right. Thanks, and I understand if I move player before hand is over I might came to problem to return another player to the same table and could avoid that just to wait for hand result. Nice. TY!
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to zvjerko,
I think the most important fact that you can get from all of these descriptions is; you should NEVER put a player in the small blind position. period.
Nick C
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Nick,
Whilst we would always try to avoid putting someone into the SB TDA rules do allow for a player to sit down in the SB/BB/Button and take it for their first hand at the table, providing they are moving from a broken table.
5. Breaking Tables
Players going from a broken table to fill in seats assume the rights and responsibilities of the position. They can get the big blind, the small blind, or the button. The only place they cannot get a hand is between the small blind and the button.
Regards
Stuart
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How do you define between the small blind and the button?
Nick C
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Between the SB and button would be where a seat has been vacant the previous hand with the BB after it. The new hand commences and the seat after it starts with the SB and a player is now seated into the vacant seat.
This would be a situation where the player would have to wait for the button to pass to receive a hand.
Best Regards
Stuart
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Thanks Stuamurr,
I finally got it!.......Why don't we get together and come up with a better way to explain some of these rules so everyone can understand them. I have been in poker all my life, and it has me scratching my head as to what they are talking about sometimes. Here is my example:
POKER TOURNAMENT DIRECTORS ASSOCIATION
Rules Version 2009.2.0, released Sept. 15, 2009
Seating Players: Breaking & Balancing Tables
#5 BREAKING TABLES
Players going from a broken table to fill in seats assume the rights and responsibilities of the position. They can get the big blind, the small blind, or the button. The only place they can not get a hand is between the small blind and the button. How is this instead: A new player can not occupy an empty seat between the button and the small blind. This I would understand.
Nick C
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When BREAKING tables, a player can certainly "occupy" the vacant seat between the Button and the SB, but he she cannot get a hand until the button passes. To do otherwise would be a logistical nightmare, in events where you have more than just 2-3 tables.
Imagine being at an event with 50-100 tables. As players bust, their "seat card" is picked up by a floor person. It may take a while to bust out enough players to break a table and in the meantime the floor person has absolutely no idea of where the button might be in relation to the empty seat that is to be filled. To not to seat a player in an empty seat between the button and the SB, would be an absolute logistical nightmare, if not a practical impossibility.
I don't understand the problem with the player taking the empty seat and then not getting a hand until the button passes.
Chet
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Indeed Nick, Chets response is very valid your wording is along the right roads but slightly askew as they can be seated. I do agree however some technical wording can be hard to understand, I was having a detailed breakdown of action out of turn tonight at a game and I (nearly) got lost myself in the technicalities!
One of the rules I always struggle with is this one:
6. Balancing Tables
In flop and mixed games when balancing tables, players will be moved from the big blind to the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice. Worst position is never the small blind. The table from which a player is moved will be as specified by a predetermined procedure. Play will halt on any table that is three or more players short.
I keep thinking it means that the player will take the BB twice in succession until I read it over and over and realise it says the seat lol
Regards
Stuart
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Chet,
I appreciate your response and I understand that a player can wait until the button passes. I guess my concerns are related to tournaments only, so why would you intentionally ever move a player into a position, where he is forced to miss a hand? It's an automatic in a cash game, but not in tournament play.
Nick C
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Nick, when collapsing a table would be the classic situation where you would put someone down between the SB and Bt. I do put people in there quite a lot when they are coming from a broken table, infact it is almost a weekly occurance for me with games every day.
Regards
Stuart
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to zvjerko,
I think the most important fact that you can get from all of these descriptions is; you should NEVER put a player in the small blind position. period.
Nick C
That is quite clear. Where he will be seated is understood, but who will be moved wasn't quite clear and now with yours replies is much more clear.