POKER TOURNAMENT MANAGEMENT & PROMOTION BOARDS => Event structuring => Topic started by: Guillaume Gleize on April 16, 2012, 07:54:24 PM

Title: Redraw management
Post by: Guillaume Gleize on April 16, 2012, 07:54:24 PM
On a big event (1000 players and 4 Day1) how do you manage the redraw between the days and the stacks of the players?
We just record the stacks and do not keep them in "secured bags".
The computer redraw the players between the days (they will only know their new table & place on lists when arriving at the day2).
Before the start of the day2 we give to each dealers the list of his new players with racks of chips and they rebuilt the stacks.
What about you?
Title: Re: Redraw management
Post by: Spence on April 16, 2012, 08:46:56 PM
We bag everything. For the redraw we print seating card numbers for each table and the player will randomly select one when they retrieve their chips. If a player does not show up then the TD will draw a seat for them and their chips will be placed in the appropraite seat. We put a clause in our tournament rules that states if players are late to the tournament then management holds no responsibility for their chips not be verified from the previous night. (We do, but don't tell them that)
Title: Re: Redraw management
Post by: K-Lo on April 17, 2012, 07:47:29 AM
With respect to the redraw:

Of course if it can be done by computer ahead of time, and a list can be printed, IMO this is most efficient as you can simply post the list for viewing as players arrive, and players can find their own way to their tables with their chips already waiting for them at the tables with the dealers. This also eliminates unnecessary handling and movement of chips amongst players during seating, which is safer.  Furthermore, if the list can be made available (e.g. online) hours before the event (e.g. at the beginning of the day), I know some players like this because it gives them a short period to 'research' their competition, but this is not always practical.

Without a pre-printed list, a manual redraw using seat cards upon arrival is fine, and I do this for smaller tournaments.  However, this can create a bit of a busy situation for bigger tournaments if players are given their bags then -- you need staff to find the right bag, and then all the players will be carrying their own bags around the room trying to find the right table.  This is usually not a big deal for smaller multi-day tourneys, but for larger ones, this may be an issue as you can have huge line-ups at check-in, and any problems that arise can make the situation a bit chaotic -- compare this to the situation where the redraw has already been done in advance and you are able to get all the bags to the right tables before the players even arrive.

With respect to player stacks:

I always prefer bagging the physical chips, and sealing the bags.  The players will open the bags themselves in the presence of the dealer if they arrive early enough.  This eliminates many of the problems that comes with complaints along the lines of "I'm sure I had more chips than this", etc.  

The problem with simply relying on a recorded number of chips on a list, is that you have little defense against accusations of errors due to, for example, improper data entry into the computer.  "Oh, the list says 8,000, but I actually had 80,000" or "someone else's chip count was recorded under my name" or "this is not my count, mine was entered incorrectly under J Smith, not G Smith", etc.  

And even if you are able to check back, for verification, to an original hand-written record that was filled in the previous day at the table and that was presumably checked by both the players and the dealers, you may still get problems like: "See!  That's a seven, not a one;  that's 700,000 not 100,000" or "That is supposed to be a nine, not a four" or "That is 18000, not 10000", etc.  Even if you agree that an error was made and can correct it, it can still be time-consuming to sort out all of these situations just before play is to start.  On the other hand, it is much more difficult for any player to argue that an error has been made when the physical chips themselves are simply bagged and sealed and then re-opened by the player himself the next day.
Title: Re: Redraw management
Post by: Guillaume Gleize on April 17, 2012, 02:08:20 PM
Thank you so much K-LO for your time and very interesting advice.

I have to make this decision to manage a quick coming (end of the month) 550 euros event of 1000 players (800 allready payed) with 4 day1 plus 2 day2 (twice a day from 10H00 AM to 5H00 AM next day) then days 3-4-5 ... in a VERY LITTLE card room!

I think I will follow your advice and change to secured bags but I will have to manage some special points:

My last question is: how and when do you actually redraw? I mean ok I will have a little hill of 500 bags in my chip room at the end of day 1D. Thoses bags will be there stocked by the last table they were during their day 1 like:
Table 1 PLace 1 John Smith 32.000  
Table 1 PLace 2 Jack Moriarty 28.000
Table 1 PLace 3 Steven Cassady 45.000
... and 500 like that ... in the room!

So what?

OK same thing on a list ... we random new table and place for each so:
Table 1 PLace 1 John Smith 32.000  now Table 23 Place 8  
Table 1 PLace 2 Jack Moriarty 28.000 now Table 7 Place 10
Table 1 PLace 3 Steven Cassady 45.000 now Table 15 Place 4
... on a list!

OK to print the new lists on the wall for the day2 but what is your secret FOR THE BAGS?

Do you lock a guy in the chip room and ask him to write the new Tables & Places on EACH BAG and to restock them the correct way for the dealers to take them quickly during the morning of the day 2 ?

 ???   TY by advance.

Title: Re: Redraw management
Post by: K-Lo on April 17, 2012, 10:24:01 PM
At the outset, I should say that I have never had the privilege of managing a 4 "Day 1" event, so I can only tell you what I think should be done.  If I am wrong in my opinions, I trust someone will correct me.

With respect to the bagging and the redraw, first, it should be possible to write on the bag, at the minimum the player's name and chip count. 

Second, I would consider having players fill out a receipt, preferably that makes three copies:  One for the dealer, one for the player, and preferably one for the bag.  (Sometimes you can get away with not having a third copy for the bag, if you get players to clearly write all the information on the bag itself.)  The receipt should have a place at least for the full name of the person, their hometown/country (in case two people have similar names), and chip count.  (Note that the chip count is not binding and the floor/dealers will not verify the counts... it is effectively only an estimate.  The player is only entitled to whatever physical chips have been sealed in the bag.)

At the end of each Day 1, you can then collect all the dealer copies of the receipts, and use the receipts (not the bags themselves) to start entering information into the computer.  Meanwhile, I personally would store the bags in a safe room, but instead of dumping them all into one big pile, I would have someone sort the bags into different piles alphabetically by last name:  e.g.. after Day 1A, throw all bags for players with last names starting with A-C into one pile, D-F in another pile, etc..; and after Day 1B, just add the new bags to the appropriate existing piles based on player last name.  (I don't really see any benefit to sorting the bags by the old day 1 table number).

At the end of Day 1D, after you've finished entering the remainder of the player information (from the Day 1D receipts) in the computer, you can now create your new seating lists for day 2A and day 2B seats.  This should be done by using a random draw from all the names of all four days combined.  The list can be posted in the room, on your website, in the lobby, etc.

At the very beginning of day 2A before play begins (or better yet, you can start the night before), you will need someone to take the new seating lists, and retrieve all the bags for each Day 2 table.  The person will find all the bags for Day 2A Table 1, by looking in the pile of bags based on each player's last name.  Optionally, you can also have someone write the new table number on the bags with a marker. The bags are then found for Day 2A Table 2, Day 2A Table 3 and so on.  Repeat for all Day 2A and Day 2B tables.  If everything goes well, all bags for all players on the list should be accounted for (if not, you will have to determine why there is a discrepancy, whether it is because you are missing a bag or you have an extra bag or whatever).   It is a bit of work to sort all the Day 1 bags into new piles for the Day 2A & Day 2B tables, but if you were disciplined enough to take the time to sort the bags into piles by last name after each Day 1, it should not take too long to find all the players' bags for the new tables.  Once all the bags are sorted by Day 2A & Day 2B tables, then you simply need to bring them out to the tables when the dealers are seated.  And I think that's it.

I would tend to do the redraw as noted above.  However, I should point out that there are other ways of doing the redraw.  For example, I believe at some events, the receipts that are filled out by each player at the end of day 1 may have Day 2 seating assignments already pre-printed on them. For example, a stack of receipts each with a pre-printed Day 2 assignment "table 1 seat 1", "table 1 seat 2"....  "table 50 seat 7", "table 50 seat 8" can be generated in advance based on an estimate of how many players will make Day 2.  These receipts are then handed out "randomly" to different Day 1 tables.  Some TDs may decide to have seats 1 & 2 for each table reserved for Day 1A players, seats 3 & 4 for Day 1B players, seats 5 & 6 for Day 1C players, and seats 7 & 8 for Day 1D players, or some similar breakdown, so that different players from different days will be mixed up at any given Day 2 table.  The good thing about this method is that you are effectively doing the redraw in advance by using pre-printed table assignments on the receipts, and players will already know what table and seat they are going to be in when they leave for the day on Day 1.  And since the Day 1 bags can be marked with the Day 2 seating assignments as shown on the receipt, the bags only need to be sorted once, by Day 2 table, for storage. 

However, the problem I have with using the pre-printed receipts is that it is not truly a random draw.  One doesn't know how many players each day will end up with (e.g. what happens if you have a lot of players left after the same number of blind levels on Day 1D and you need more receipts?), and a random draw should allow for the possibility of different numbers of players from different day 1s to be seated at any given table. 

For a redraw to be truly random, in my opinion, one should wait until the end of the last Day 1, and then do the redraw with all players left from all Day 1s combined.  That is why I personally do not prefer the pre-printed table assignment receipts, and opt instead to the redraw in the manner I outlined earlier.  Sorry for the long post... I hope this is helpful.
Title: Re: Redraw management
Post by: Guillaume Gleize on April 18, 2012, 12:08:05 AM
Dear K-Lo

Thank you so much for that answer. It's not too long: it's absolutely helpfull for me who have to make decisions TODAY before meeting the Room managers TOMOROW. Usually I manage like you tourneys of 100 to 400 players with dealers. Sometime 1000 to 2000 players WITHOUT DEALERS and WITHOUT REDRAWS (special sponsored events). But it's the first time I will manage a 1000 players WITH DEALERS AND REDRAWS.

In this big answer I got my main answer: Whatever the method, someone will actually have to work in the chip room to ORGANISE the bags! I mean I feel better: there is no other "magic" way.

I also saw a 3rd solution in some room, close to your second one: At the end of Day 1 they randomly give tickets to each player with places & tables for the day 2. The players place it inside the bag and write the new table & place number on the bag. The dealers also write the new table & place on their dealer list. Advantages and problems are quite the same as your second solution but I'm tempted.

Another point for me: players from day 1A and 1C MUST be in day 2A and players from 1B & 1C MUST be in day 2B. But it's OK.

Let's make an exemple with this last method: Day 1A = 123 players left and day 1C = 138 left
End of day 1A: 123 players left = We give random tickets for 13 tables and keep the 7 extra tickets appart
End of day 1C: 138 players left = We give random the 7 extra tickets plus tickets for 14 other tables without 9 places #10

A few more brain work for the TD but much less messy work in the chip room for the guys!
Also the redraw being done: the chip manager now only have to write the lists on the computer.

Your opinion? (If you have some time left for sure)

Title: Re: Redraw management
Post by: K-Lo on April 18, 2012, 08:07:24 AM
Hi GG:

I am a bit confused about the example.  Are you saying that all day 1A players will be assigned to the same 13 tables so all day 1A players will only be playing against each other?  If this is the case, I'm not a big fan of this since it is not very random.  There is a very good chance a player will be at the same table with players he had the benefit of playing with for an entire day, which is a huge advantage.  I would be more inclined to modify your example and make tickets for all 27 Day 2A tables at once, and then randomly distribute some of them at the end of day 1A and the rest at the end of day 1C.  

Don't underestimate the extra work that needs to be done by the TD if you use the pre-assigned tickets/receipts.  First, it will take time to get all of the tickets to each table at the end of the night, just when players are ready to go home.  Second, there is the issue of trying to accurately estimate how many tables you are collapsing to onto day 2A/day 2B.  What do you do if you plan for too few tables, and run out of tickets to give away at the end of day 1C?  Because there turned out to be 160 players left after Day 1C and not 138 players, for example?  You can't (well I suppose you can but I don't think you should) play more levels on day 1C just to get the number down, so you may be stuck adding a new table full of only day 1C players... not a good result.  

Therefore, it is probably better to overestimate the number of tables and have a lot of extra tickets.  You will then end up with some full tables, and other tables that would potentially have to start very short-handed... so you should balance the tables before Day 2A starts.   For example, say you gave out tickets for 35 tables instead of 27.  Then suppose you ended up after Day 1C having extra players that you can move to fill up other tables and can close six tables... You can have new seat cards at the tables to be closed (corresponding to the vacant seats at the tables to which the players will move) or a list of the re-assignments, so when a player who was assigned to a seat at a table to be closed arrives, they can move right away to their new table.  Again a bit more work and player shuffling for the TD at the start of Day 2A and Day 2B, but then you don't have the huge bag sorting problem to deal with.

In general, I personally would prefer to mix everyone together at the end of day 1D to ensure a purely random draw, but I confess that this is a lot more work, perhaps not practical for an event of your magnitude. So, I can definitely see the logistical advantages to giving pre-assigned seats at the end of each day, particularly for larger fields.

One last point - I generally prefer having a computer doing random redraws, but if you are going to use tickets, you need to make sure that they are really mixed up well before you give them out -- they may tend to clump together if you simply hand shuffle, and you don't want to have for example, three players from the same Day 1 table going to the same Day 2 table just because tickets were sticking together.

Title: Re: Redraw management
Post by: Uniden32 on June 29, 2015, 01:08:21 PM
We run several multiday events a month and found this method very effective:

We have a separate set of seating passes specifically for Day 2s.

When we bag a particular flight of a tournament, we randomly give out seating passes to the bagged players.  The bagging slip contains a place for their new table and seat.

With this method, we have to estimate how many tables we'll need at the start of the tournament, and there are times where I have to add a table or two for the last flight or break a table or two before I begin Day 2.

This method gives us the opportunity to post Day 2 Seating Assignments and chip counts online as well.