PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => NonTDA Tournament and General Poker Rules Discussion => Topic started by: fgmyers on February 21, 2012, 02:15:45 PM

Given the following scenario, what would you rule the "Pot" bet to be:
Pot size is 100, Flop dealt and player 1 bets $50. Player 2 raises to $150. Player 3 goes all in for $210. Player 4 calls pot.
How much is the Pot bet?
We use a standard formula of 3 times the last bet, plus the trail, plus the pot. It has been suggested by our players that this formula will not work because the short all in should only count as part of the the pot and not the last bet. In that case the bet would be 3 times the $150, plus the $210, plus the $50.
I usually stick with the formula, but since the question was posed and there is not much PLO situational info on the net, I thought I'd ask you all.
Thanks
Frank M.

The pot bet is $930. Your 1st formula still works. If you ever have any doubt, just figure it the old fashioned way. Player 4 calls 210 and raises 720 (210+210+150+50+100). Cheers.

fygmyers,
I think you meant to say Player 4 "bets the pot" not calls pot.I understand your intent but it leads to confusion. I think your formula works but it would always be 3 times the largest bet on that round, plus the trail and plus the pot. I think my formula works well. I'm not an expert on potlimit so I might be off.

The pot bet is $930. Your 1st formula still works. If you ever have any doubt, just figure it the old fashioned way. Player 4 calls 210 and raises 720 (210+210+150+50+100). Cheers.
Agreed, and nicely put.

Frank M,
Your formula works but I think the wording can be misleading. If the pot is 500 and Player A bets 500, and B goes allin for 400 and C goes allin for 250...the call to Player D would be 500, The min raise would be 500 more or 1000 total. The max raise (pot) would be 2650, right? 500 (pot)+3x500 (bet)+400+250.
KLo, I agree with your amount I'm just trying to find a better way to word the formula from 3x the last bet. I'd really like feedback from you and pdrhodes, and Frank.
Thanks.

Frank M,
Your formula works but I think the wording can be misleading. If the pot is 500 and Player A bets 500, and B goes allin for 400 and C goes allin for 250...the call to Player D would be 500, The min raise would be 500 more or 1000 total. The max raise (pot) would be 2650, right? 500 (pot)+3x500 (bet)+400+250.
KLo, I agree with your amount I'm just trying to find a better way to word the formula from 3x the last bet. I'd really like feedback from you and pdrhodes, and Frank.
Thanks.
Hi Nick: Yes, you are right. "last bet" will not work under all circumstances. It is probably more accurate to say that the total of the pot wager for a given betting round is the pot itself if there has been no betting in that round, and if there has been wagering in that betting round, then it is: 3xA (A is the last fullsized wager or the largest bet for the round if there have not been any fullsized wagers for that betting round) + all other wagers already made for that betting round not including A + the amount of the pot prior to that betting round.
The simpler version works though so long as the last wager to be called before the pot raise is a fullsized wager.
K

Thanks KLo,
Sounds like we can come up with some verbage that will make a simpler formula for the otherwise complex betting for potlimit.

Whenever people have said 3x the bet it is always meant to mean the "active bet" (whatever a call amount would be). 3x the "active bet" plus the trail and pot will always work

Spence,
That's what we need, easy to understand rules.
I want to add the following FORMULA that should be used to determine the maximum allowable bet for potlimit. Any player facing a bet, may raise 3 times the largest bet required for a call, plus the remaining trail, plus the pot. Example: Pot size 100, Player A bets 50, Player B goes allin for 20, Player C wants to raise “pot.”
Answer: Three times 50+20+100=270.
Formula works for any player when it is their turn to act, even the under the gun position preflop. Example: Blinds $5 and $10. UTG bets “pot.” Three times the Big Blind plus the Small Blind. Three times $10+$5=$35. PLEASE NOTE: The small blind is sometimes counted as a completed bet to the Big Blind, this will allow the “pot bet” to increase to $40.
I used "the largest bet required to call" instead of your "active bet" but either one works for me. I think it breaks it down to it's simplest form

For peple who are proficient at pot limit calculations I find the 3x formula is fine. Whenever we train new dealers we always teach them 2x plus everything before plus the pot. I often found that new dealers would add an extra bet when doing the 3x calc. When they added the trail they would add the current standing bet again and create this 4x oddity. I want people who are new to pot limit calculations to completely understand exactly how we calculate the pot with these tricks. Everyone can follow how we are going about this already can't they?

Spence,
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it works for you great. I went back and made an important change to my formula after reading your last post. I added the word "remaining" in front of trail. Now I really like it. Thanks Spence.

Nick:
When you say "...any player facing abet, may raise 3 times...".  don't you mean "raise to a total of 3 times"? Otherwise, you get the four times oddity that Spence is talking about.
Do you think we actually need it to be in the Rules though? it is really a trick that we are using. By first principles, pot is basically calling the active bet plus raising the total amount of the pot including the call. Perhaps we only need the three times "shortcut" as a isuggestion under "recommended procedures" if anything.
A theoretical question... One of the things I have been curious about is the origin of the "pot" declaration. It is interesting that when there is no bet for a particular betting round, "pot" is basically the same as "i bet the current amount of the pot". However, when there has been a wager in that round, whether fullsized or not, "pot" is interpreted as "i RAISE the last (typically) bet the current amount of the pot". I suppose the first case can basically be treated as a "raise of a zero bet", but it is interesting that "pot" generally signifies a raise. Does anyone know the origin of this? If someone says "I bet the amount of the pot"', should it automatically be treated as a potsized raise (as opposed to a "bet") when there has already been a bet for that round? Does anyone even bother asking players for clarification?

KLo,
I think "pot" or "bet the pot" simply means that player is "betting the max." As far as the player facing a bet may raise 3 times the bet...You are probably correct on some of the wording. The formula for calculating the pot size wager can be easily assessed by multiplying the required amont to call by 3. The sum will then require adding the remaining "trail" and the pot. Example: A player facing a 100 bet wishes to "bet the pot." Formula; 3 times 100 = 300. Plus the trail of bets (if any), plus the amount of the pot.
You're correct, it's not a rule just a simple way for me to explain pot limit to students. There are those that use 2x the bet and then add the complete trail plus the pot. Whatever makes life easier for the dealers and players is what I'm looking for. We have asked for a formula for potlimit in the past and never had anything this good.
I'm glad that some of us are at least responding with some positive feedback. I'm trying to find the easiest solution to (arguably) the toughest game to deal in terms of betting and raising.

I think this sounds perfect and will be added for reference to our rulebook for clarification on this irregular circumstance:
Any player facing a bet, may raise 3 times the largest bet required for a call, plus the remaining trail, plus the pot.
Ex. Pot size is $100. Player A bets $50. Player B raises to $150. Player C goes all in for $240. Player D bets “Pot.” Pot would be calculated as 3X $240(The last full bet required for a call) + the trail $150+$50=$200 + the original pot of $100. The total pot bet would be $1020.
Ex. Pot size is $100. Player A bets $50. Player B raises to $150. Player C goes all in for $110. Player D bets “Pot.” Pot would be calculated as 3X $150(The last full bet required for a call) + the trail $110+$50=$160 + the original pot of $100. The total pot bet would be $710.
How does that look guys? Thanks for all the feedback. I learned alot with all of your help.

fgmyers,
You've got it!

I think this sounds perfect and will be added for reference to our rulebook for clarification on this irregular circumstance:
Any player facing a bet, may raise 3 times the largest bet required for a call, plus the remaining trail, plus the pot.
I like your examples!
For clarity, I personally would say that any player facing a bet "may raise to a total of 3 times the largest bet...." Even your examples recognize it is the total pot bet and not the actual amount of the raise over the calling amount.

When I teach dealers/floors my wording is "3 times the bet you're facing..."