PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: ew2484 on February 01, 2012, 12:38:09 PM
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Heads up situation, players sitting next to each other, player A goes all in, action on player B is thinking lifts cards to view for a few seconds exposing to player A, then calls.
Are we giving a penalty to player B for exposing cards while their own action is pending? Is there a difference between holding cards up in front of yourself and fulling turning over on the table? Does the time it takes player B to call matter in terms of penalties given?
Thanks
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automatic penalty for showing cards while own action is pending if they act on their hand after exposing???
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Hi ew:
Player B is most likely doing this to get a reaction from Player A before deciding whether to call or not. This is not generally permissible (some TDs will make an exception if there are only two players left in the entire tournament).
In my view, this action would warrant at least a warning if not a 1 hand or 1+ round penalty unless these are the only two players left in the entire tournament. The severity of the penalty for this particular infraction could well depend on the player's history (e.g. past infractions). I don't think there's a difference in how the cards are exposed and I do not think that the amount of time it takes player B to call is relevant.
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thanks KLO!
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No problem. :)
I should also add that if Player B had held up his cards so that Player A could see them, and then decided to fold, the other players at the table would be entitled to see Player A's cards after the hand is done (show one, show all).
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of course, with no penalty or warning? What if the players exposes their cards heads up, doesnt fold right away, but decides to fold after a minute or so?
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Allowing all other players at the table to see the exposed cards is a separate issue.
The fact that the cards were exposed to his opponent only, or to the whole table if the cards were revealed face-up, would, itself, merit a warning/penalty as I noted above.
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I have been called to the table many times for this offense and I always ask the dealer "In your opinion was it carelessness, accidental, or on purpose to get a read?" If my dealer feels it was done purposely I issue a one round penalty, period. If the dealer feels it is an accident or carelessness it's a warning.
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A group of us had a big discussion about this in our room and came to the agreement that we would allow the player to do so as the should be able to do almost anything in their power to outplay their opponent. I am still on the fence as I think it is a bit of an underhanded move. There are plenty of other moves like this that I think are borderline angle shoots and I find that they have to much leniency in some rooms. However, I feel as a player I want my entire arsenal open to win. If I can get a read why shouldn't I be able to use it? I hope I get some arguments on this one as I have been on both sides of the argument over the last year.
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Spence.
You seem to be confused about this issue because you have been on both sides of the argument for the last year. When administering rulings, TDs must remain correct and consistent. You understand that this is an "underhanded move," yet the TDA strives to maintain an ethical quality in poker.
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I am with Mooredog (more or less) although if others felt at the table it was accidental, it would be a single missed hand penalty, rather as simply a warning.
Regards
Stuart
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However, I feel as a player I want my entire arsenal open to win. If I can get a read why shouldn't I be able to use it?
In my view, you shouldn't be able to obtain a read in that way if it fails to protect other players left in the tournament, all of whom have an interest in seeing players eliminated. That is why there is less of an issue with table talk or exposing cards intentionally to obtain a read if there are only two people remaining in the entire tournament (or in cash games), because there is no one else to protect.
For discussion's sake, consider the following scenario.
Three players left in a tournament, A, B & C. Top 2 places pay. A & B both have 100,000 chips, C has 25,000 chips left. A raises, B re-raises all-in, C folds. A is contemplating calling (he has AK suited).
a) Do you think B should be able to show A that he has KK? B would like to show KK because he wants to discourage player A from calling with an Ace, and is afraid of being eliminated on the bubble.
b) Do you think that A should be able to show B that he has AKs? A knows that B is the type of player that will look very excited upon seeing the hand if B actually has Aces or Kings.
c) Do you think that A should be able to ask B if he has a pair, and that B should then be allowed to reveal that he does have a pair? A plans to fold if B reveals that he has a pair since he doesn't want to risk (what is at best) a coin flip.
In my view, none of the above actions should be permitted if C is still left in the tournament. Sure, in general, players should be able to rely on their experience to obtain reads that will help them make better decisions. However, if a line has to be drawn, I believe it has to be drawn so that players are not permitted to reveal the contents of their hand (either verbal, or by exposing their hand) since it does affect other players in the tournament. In the above situations, A would essentialy be basing his decision to call or fold given knowledge of the contents of both hands -- breaking the one player to a hand rule.
In particular, if C were to argue that it is unfair for A and B to "share" information in this way that would give A a chance to fold, when most other players might have insta-called with AKs in the same situation, which would have eliminated one of the players allowing C to cash, would you be inclined to agree with C that it is unfair?
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Spence, Take a look at rule # 50 and 52. It's clear that showing cards with action pending is in violation of TDA rules. Most cash games allow it, especially heads up.
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The original question involved only two players, there's a big difference exposing any cards when other players are in the hand. Head to head eliminates collusion, right?
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ew2484:
Are the two players heads up in the hand, with other players still in the tournament, or heads up, with no one else left in the tournament?
It matters.
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It does?...Since when!
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Full table, early in the tournament, two players left in the hand, Player B puts player A all-in on the flop. Player A is tanking and lifts cards in front to look at them again and quickly show the table in discust at the tough dececion, shakes their head, shrugs their sholders then calls not long after exposing...
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CoreySilver,
I'm having a tough time trying to follow what you are saying. If the action is down to heads-up, a penalty could be issued for exposing a hand but it is very different from exposing your cards with players in a multy handed pot with action pending. That's all I'm saying. It is a bad practice in either scenario, but the implications for collusion are non-existant in head-to-head.
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I believe the general consensus though, is that exposing cards with action pending does not protect all players in the tournament if there are more than two players left in the entire tournament. Even if play comes down to heads-up for a given hand, if there are more than two players in the tournament, cards should not be exposed (as I noted in my earlier example). Not an issue in cash games.