PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: Stuart Murray on June 24, 2011, 09:15:52 AM
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This happened recently and I want to gauge others though process:
NLHE Blinds 25/50, middle seat opens for 125, few callers and round to SB who takes back his 25 and tosses in a 500 and the 25 he already had out as SB. Raise to 525 or call 125?
Regards
Stu
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This will be definitively resolved at the Summit June 29-30 as it's prominently on the rules discussion list.
Personally I would say that the 25 is already bet and if the 25 is left in front of the player (not scooped up), the 500 is an overchip and is merely a call of the extra 25 of the BB. But we need an answer as to what happens when the chips are scooped then pushed out together in a "gesture" that can be construed as a raise. Is it a mixed-chip bet at that point and therefore a raise?
My answer at this point: We can get into trouble if 500 + a 25 chip already bet is a call in one situation but the same 500 chip + the same 25 already bet is a raise if only the gesture is different, without any verbal declare. I really feel this should be the same bet both ways so we don't have to parse gestures, and in that case, it would be a call both ways because adding a 500 overchip silently (to a chip already bet in front of you) when facing a 25 bet is a call.
That said, I would rule for a raise if the gesture was compelling that it's a raise such as an upward motion with the thumbs...... but merely combining the two then pushing them back out really doesn't reach that standard for me. What gesture does reach a clear raise? Well unfortunately that may be up to the TD at the time and per Rule 30 "it's the player's responsibility to make their actions clear"... if the player intends a raise but he doesn't make himself clear and the TD rules a call, then it's the players fault, we don't ahve to micro-parse every unclear utterance and gesture. If the player intended a call but he gets a raise ruling, again, it's his responsibility not the TD, he'll be more careful in the future.
As you say, to you this situation was "unclear", and my personal bias is that if it's unclear, in this situation it would be a call. I'm pretty certain there's a contingent who for good reason would tend to rule a raise here, so having this on the agenda at the Summit will give us a more definitive interpretation.
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I agree with Mike. The bet is unclear and I would have called it a raise. In situations like this, the immediate response from the dealer could clear it up before others follow. It would be a good time to let the players know that; future unclear actions could be costly. Whithout a verbal declaration, I'd rule it a call, also. Interesting post.
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I can agree with Mike that some consistent rule in this kind of situation would be good, but on the other hand I think this gesture is actually very clear as to intent. Take back the blind chips and throw out 2 chips of different denoms in order to demonstrate that your 500 chip is not just a call but a raise.
The rule should be that if a player takes back blind chips (well, any previously bet chips I suppose) and then tosses out replacement chips that the multi-denominational rule, the 50% rule for raising and the multiple same denomination rules apply to the "new" bet and that is that.
So in this case the player took back his blind bet then tossed out two different denoms that clearly equal a raise. If he had scooped the blind chips then just tossed out the 500 chip then it would be a call (single chip rule).
I am willing to bet that the players actual intent was to make giving change for his call easier for the dealer but that would be his problem for not making his intent clear :)
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End result was I let it go as a raise to 525, Whilst the lifting of the 25 SB and then re-posting is unclear due toit already being part of the pot, his intention was to raise, like I said to him at the time, ask 100 TD's if it's a call125 or raise to 525 half will likely rule raise, half will likely rule call. It is realistically one of these situations that unless there is a substantive rule, players will always be at the mercy of the TD making the ruling.
Regards
Stu
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You're right Stuart: I'm part of the 50% who would make it A CALL!
1) We don't like to see the players take back their bets or their change: my dealers would kill them!
2) We don't have time (opponents, dealers, floors & TDs) to try to translate unclear motions of unclear players.
3) The movement of the 25 chip isn't part of the bet: it was allready on the table so it's the single chip rule making it a call.
4) I'm part of the "old school" from 5 card draw when raises was under strict rules and had to be quick and clear: the punishment was the call.
5) But I love you TDA and just tell me after this 2011 summit that now I'll have to make it a raise ... I'll make it a raise! To be strong, let's stay strongly together!
GG
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I agree that it is a raise because the SB used mutiple chips as his/her action. Although would it be a call still if the SB with the 25 already put in tossed in the 500 chip even though that would make the bet 2 chips? (25 as the SB and 500 chip intent to raise)