PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: Brian Vickers on April 25, 2011, 10:54:28 AM
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This just happened about 5 minutes ago in our daily tournament...
3 players all-in, preflop. All the cards are turned up and the dealer puts out the flop. The next card in the stub (would have been the burn card) is a boxed card. Our procedure is to treat boxed cards like they don't exist (which I presume is the same everywhere) so the boxed card was set aside, the next card in the stub was burned and then we saw that the following card in the stub was also boxed. I had the dealer discard this card as well and the next two cards were boxed...
At this point I felt that this was too excessive and hindered the integrity of the hand. I ruled that the deck was fouled and the hand could not proceed. I mucked all hands, refunded all the chips from that hand, but then kept the button and blinds in the same spot and started the entire hand over fresh.
How do you guys feel about a misdeal mid-hand like this? Was this the right thing to do, or should I have just continued to discard the boxed cards?
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Absolutely the correct decision.
From RRoP v.11., Note item 2c below
MISDEALS
1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.
2. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands.
(a) The first or second card of the hand has been exposed by a dealer error.
(b) Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer.
(c) Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found.
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I found that section of RRoP, but it does say "provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands." In fact, every player at the table had acted on his/her hand and with 3 all-ins the board was being run out. I just wanted ot make sure I was OK to call it fouled after so much action had taken place. It felt like the right thing to do.
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After reading RRoP more closely and looking at your example in detail, I think my original response was wrong. There was action by more than 2 players so a misdeal cannot be called. I think what you should have done is considered each boxed card as a scrap of paper and set it aside. The 1st non-boxed card would be the burn and the next 3 non-boxed cards would be the flop, etc., through the end of the hand.
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I always thought that two boxed cards discovered before the deal was complete called for a misdeal. This would not include the deck stub after the last card but, any two boxed cards during a deal. Interesting. the good news is, I never saw it before that I can recall.
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I think action should have continued. With 3 all-ins I think that not continuing is disrupting the integrity of the game. If it had simply been a called hand I may call a misdeal. As a side note, were the cards coming out of an automatic shuffler? If the boxed cards were a problem could the board cards have been manually reshuffled by the dealer then a proper board placed?
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I decided to re-write my earlier post, which supported your initial decision, as I have taken the time to consider the rule and what happened.
The hand must play out in some way shape or form. How you handle this is not covered as
a). substantial action has occurred in the hand, therefore a mis-deal cannot be called and
b). more than one boxed card has been discovered after the substantial action.
c). RROP is very specific in that: "Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called" and "The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands"
I would be interested to hear other views on how they would handle the boxed cards as in theory there could be so many boxed card that the whole stub is fouled and a board cannot be established. Because the action is complete it actully makes handling the situation easier as you don't have the additional mess of handling further streets of action with a considerable amount of boxed cards, I can only infer that should that happen action would have to stop, the pot be frozen and remaining players treated as if they were all-in for the already formed pot, with no further prospect of betting permitted.
That just leaves therefore how to handle the boxed cards. should we treat them as "meaningless scraps" or something different, I tend to lean towards to fore, discarding all the boxed cards and continuing as per RROP's rule for handling one boxed card, but then it would be something that would need to be handled differently if the remainder of the stub is boxed or there are so few cards left that are facedown in the deck that a board cannot reasonably be established. In that circumstance I feel we would need to reshuffle the remaining stub in order to reconstitute the deck, which is not the 'fairest' way possible but may well be the only way possible.
Regards
Stuart
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Stuart, welcome back. I feel that we are having difficulty with the problem of boxed cards because the situation is governed by conflicting rules. One rule states that once substantial action takes place the hand must be played out and, another rule says that a misdeal must happen if more than one boxed card is discovered in any deal.
To answer one of Brian's original questions, I don't like stopping the action mid way through the hand but, I would....... I think you made the right call. I understand that a boxed card is treated like a "piece of paper" and can not play. However, it is still a card that has been EXPOSED and two exposed cards is, too much. I think that had a big part in the decision to refund all wagers and redeal.
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Hi Nick,
Yeh for some reason I was always accessing the wrong url, at appservicesonline instead of pokertdaforum.com, which seems to be working fine now, must of missed something somewhere, but picked it up back through the main website.
With regard to the boxed cards, I am swayed in favor of playing on and calling a misdeal, although RROP is specific in it's rule, if it was a situation where betting was still underway and so many boxed cards started appearing, that's where it's gonna get real messy whatever happens, in the case of the 3 players being all-in the best interests of the game is to have 1 winner in tournament play, so therefore I am more inclined to have the board ran in some way.
I just think that calling a misdeal opens the door (yet again) to future problems, but as always as long as a rule is enforced locally consistently there should be no major problems.
Best
Stuart
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My humble opinion is to rule depending on the situation:
a) if during a hand with no one all-in (imagine the draws or semi bluffs and their odds ...) I think 2 boxed cards or more should cancel the hand!
b) at showdown or all-in players: we keep on going untill we build a complete board!
One deetail please: if cancelled, you give back the chips also to the players who folded before the incident right? ... yes for sure ... (hum well) ...
8)
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Guillaume,
If you decide to redeal then yes, all chips would be returned to all players and the hand would be dealt again with the button and blinds in the same position.
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Personally I'm not a fan of redeals, but in saying that, I will redeal if it is in the best interest of the game.
I like how Guillaume Gleize would rule depending on the situation,
e.g. Four Hearts on the turn and 2 or more boxed cards were also hearts before substantial action had occurred.
I'd redeal the hand thinking that if the boxed cards were properly faced, then most likely it would have been a split pot anyway.
However, if substantial action had occurred, I'd be more inclined to play on as it seems the actors have acted in their own best interests or in the spirit of the game. I suppose this would also include any all-ins. That if a Player shoves all-in, then they too are acting in the spirit of the game.
What I can't understand is Why RRoP says it's a misdeal when there are 2 or more boxed cards after one Player has acted, even if that Player shoves all-in?
Can anyone tell me why???
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I didn't put down the players hands because I didn't want this to influence the discussion, but it ended up being pretty fun.
The hands were Ah-7d, As-Ks, and Ad-Ac. The flop was 8-5-3 with 1 spade. the boxed card was the 4 of diamonds, but when discarding that card the 7 of spades ended up being the next card which opened up a flush draw for A-K spades and giving A-7 one of the 7's he needed to make trips. After the next burn came off the next two boxed cards were both 7's, essentially killing A-7's chances of hitting trips. We neevr exposed the river card as I made my decision on seeing that there were so many boxed cards.
I do like the suggestion of only misdealing mid-hand if action is not complete, but continuing the board if all action is closed (because of 1 or more all-ins). Only problem I have with that though, is this worst-case scenario: If you are dealing Omaha, you get two all-ins pre-flop, you burn the top card and discover a boxed card there. You discard that, put the flop, and then discover 3 more boxed cards, discard all those and then discover 3 more boxed cards. Now you'd have to go into burn cards to find enough live cards for the board. I'm not saying it's probable, but it does show that there must be a cutoff on acceptable number of boxed cards no matter what stage in the hand you are in.
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I agree that once a hand gets to the turn or river card, it makes the decision to redeal extreme but, I really think that more than one boxed card is EXPOSING too many cards that could seriously affect the betting and give too much information to some players. That is why it is a misdeal.
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I have to agree with Brian about closing the action. If there will be no more betting, due to an all-in situation, then I think we have to do our best to create a board out of whatever we can. If it means a full reshuffle so we can get a live river card so be it.
Does anyone have a house rule about not exposing the bottom card? Could we then still use this as a live card in the circumstances involved?
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The rule in the two card rooms I've worked in was that the last card in the stub could not be used, yes.
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When answering the original question, I failed to consider that the players were all-in. I have never heard of a rule other than a misdeal if more than one boxed card were exposed during a deal. Does the fact that the players are all-in before the cards are exposed make a difference? Possibly. At least it makes more sense because it could not affect the betting. I do support the redeal if more than one boxed card appears with action pending.
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Excuse me everyone, but from other people's responses am I right in saying if the burn card for the flop is a boxed card- (This is not part of a face up replacement card during the deal) is it then used as the first burn card? Or dealt to the side and a new burn is dealt along with the rest of the flop?
If a boxed card is found when dealing for example the turn card, is the card instead dealt to the side and the card below it is now the turn?
Thanks. :)
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Hi Andy, the procedure is that ANY card whatever it's purpose (be a hole card, burn card, or board card) that is boxed (ie face up in the stub) is treated as a meaningless scrap of paper, show it to the players and place it in the muck, imagine you open a new deck of cards, spread, shuffle and then deal, whilst dealing a small piece of paper (for example a manufacturer's guarantee) pops out between the cards whilst dealing, you would just put it aside and continue, the procedure is the same for a boxed card.
Best
Stu
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So basically if you were to burn, you would not use the face up card but the card under it?
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So basically if you were to burn, you would not use the face up card but the card under it?
Yes. Let me give you an example to help you understand.
After all hole cards are dealt and a face-up card (Also known as a Boxed Card) is found on top of the deck. The Dealer should show it to all players at the table before the betting starts and place it face-down in the Muck. Then the players can begin betting.
Hope this helps :)
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Cheers Dave!! :)
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OUCH: in the other hand, automaticaly redealing if more than one boxed card appears with action pending brings us back to the old and terrible situation of a player accidentally EXPOSING IS HAND while action pending ... THIS ALSO CAN INFLUENCE THE FUTUR DECISIONS BUT WE DON'T REDEAL ... !?!
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Spence,
The bottom card of the deck should NEVER be dealt. However, in an extreme situation, I would rather use the bottom card (needing only one card to complete the deal), than reshuffle the deck stub for another. It will probably never happen but, IMO it is a better option.
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Nick, what you have just said just proves that there really isnt a black and white rule for every situation. I just hope at the next summit that all these questions are looked at in detail because as you say, the bottom card should NEVER be dealt under certain circumstances, it just contradicts the whole rulebooks which I find pointless in veen publishing if the rules themselves cant keep as they are. Rules should be there but as soon as you add, to the best interest of the game rules need to be ammended, sure there might be issues associated for twisting rules but it would save an awful lot of questions if rules were just straight forward.
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Andy,
That is true, there really isn't a black and white rule for every situation. What I say, does not change any rule. I am only giving a little something to add, or some other points of view, to help you come to the best ruling. There are many rules tha I am not in agreement with but, I abide by them just the same. The situations that we discuss are sometimes very rare, and in most scenarios are not likely to even happen. The average everyday occurances are handled "by the book" 99% of the time. You have brought up the possibility of hypathetical situations that will never happen in most cardrooms. This is not meant to critisize your questions but, to help us all understand that there are so many different situations that are goverened by the same rule, yet because of the number of players, or the amount bet, or if a player is all-in, and on and on, each is slightly different from the other. That is where your skill and good judgement will make a difference. Try to focus on the intent of the players involved, and make your decision fair to all. Players that continue to create problems, or are more likely to cause trouble on a regular basis, should be warned and reprimanded. Try to focus on PROTECTING non offending players. That's the way I see it. We could never have a rule for every possible situation that could occur at a card table. That's why we have rule #1.