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LIVE CASH GAME POKER RULES DISCUSSION => Live Cash Game Rules Questions => Topic started by: W0lfster on April 18, 2011, 02:02:01 AM
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I think the question is very self explanatory, please explain the procedure and conditions of this rule and why it is used.
Thx :)
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http://www.google.com/search?q=buy+the+button+poker&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
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Yes DCJ I do use google and yes Ive tried looking but im still not 100% happy but thanks anyway. I understand now that buying the button can be done when a new player has sat down and has the button on his/her immediate right. I know that he/she has to post both the blinds, what I dont understand is, is the button placed in front of the player? Or in the next hand? Also can a player who is not new and has chips on the table and goes to the bathroom lets say reenters, are they entitled to buy the button again?
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Each of your questions are answered here:
http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/angelo07.htm
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Thanks Chet, a little clearer now however, I am still unsure as to what happens on the remaining streets. Does the player who bought the button act first with check/bet? Or does the original SB act first had the player not bought the button? I ask this because technically the player who bought the button is not technically on the button as the player needs to wait the next hand to get the button, surely if this player was to act as the button without actually having the button in front of them would generate confusion.
Any thoughts?
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Andy:
You are making things MUCH more complicated than they are.
The ONLY thing that is changed from the way it would normally be (had that seat not missed a blind) is that the player buying the button has to post both blinds. There are NO changes to any other facets of the game. The player to his immediate right has the button, action starts with the player in the seat to the immediate left of the button (with the player who bought the button) and continues as it would in any other hand until it is concluded and the pot awarded.
The next hand the button moves to the player who bought it on the prior hand. The small blind is on his immediate left and the big blind to the immediate left of the small blind player.
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Everyone,
If I can stick my 2 cents in again, whithout changing the rule as we know it. The confusion comes from the name "buying the button" when in fact we are buying the small blind. This can only happen if you missed the BB on the previous hand, or you enter the seat of a player that vacated his small blind position (he was involved in the last hand when he was the BB), and then he quits the game or possibly went all in and lost. There is no way to come in on the button in a cash game unless it's the first hand dealt after opening the table.
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Ok, so tell me if Im correct in this.
Seat 1: button
Seat 2: Buys the button
Seat 3: SB now no longer posts it until next hand
Seat 4: BB now no longer posts it until next hand
player left of BB (UTG) first to act preflop as normal. Seat 2 player who bought button first to act on flop, turn and river
Can a player buy the button as many times as he /she wishes if the absent player misses posting before the BB has had a chance to skip the player?
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Andy,
#'s 1 and 2 are correct but, #3 does post SB next hand but will be UTG this hand.
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Thx Nick, but would what Ive said be correct if this was the buy the button hand?
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Andy,
Most of what you listed is correct. However the hand that Player 2 buys the button he is posting the BB and a dead SB, so the player clockwise to him (Player 3) will be under the gun.
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Andy:
"Buying the Button" means that this player is posting BOTH the small and big blinds (for the current hand).
Let me give you an example:
Last Hand --
Seat 1 is the buttoin
Seat 2 is the SB
Seat 3 is the BB
Seat 4 is the UTG, etc.,etc.,
Seat 4 goes all in
It is folded around to Seat 3, the BB who calls the all in, Seat 4 has Seat 3 covered. The hand plays out and Seat 3 is busted and leaves the table.
Next Hand --
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 3 is vacant, but a new player has been assigned and is on his way to the table
Seat 4 posts the BB, etc, etc.
Upon arrival, before the dealer starts dealing any cards, the new player in Seat 3 announces he wants to "Buy the Button". The dealer says you have to post both blinds and the player says OK and does so. Seat 4 pulls his BB back. Seat 2 is still the button, Seat 3 posts both blinds and Seat 4 is now the UTG. The hand plays out.
Next Hand --
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 4 is the SB
Seat 5 is the BB
I hope this clears things up for you.
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Arr ok, I get it! So basically the person who bought the button is acting as both the SB and BB therefore the person who would be the SB (left of person who bought the button) is now the UTG :)
Am I right in saying still you can by the button as many times as you want?
Chet, that is a very good and clear explanation, I take it then you could say seat 5 also would not post a BB in a moving button table since the BB (seat 3) busted out. Therefore if the SB has busted out instead, am I right in saying you couldnt buy the button because there wouldnt be a vacant seat? For moving button that is.
If the player sat down and decided to wait until he/she was between the BB and button again, could he/she elect to buy the button that way, or does it have to be immediate?
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Andy:
I don't know about moving button games. All of our local places to play use the "Dead" button system. While I have played in a few places that use the moving button, I don't think the applicable situation ever came up, at least as I remember.
As far as multiple buying the button tries, I don't think this would be allowed. Remember, the ONLY time a player can Buy the Button is if the seat has become vacant, either because a player busts out OR because the player occupying the seat went to eat, to the restroom, etc., and now returns to the table after having missed the BB. If house rules allow, this player can come back into the game immediately by "Buying the Button", whereas he would otherwise have to wait until the button passes and then post both blinds.
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Fair enough, and finally are you allowed to buy the button if you are in between, the BB and the SB?
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Andy:
As has been said several times, the ONLY time you can "Buy the Button" is if the vacant or empty seat would be the Small Blind. In other words, the player who had the Big Blind on the just completed hand either busted or decided to leave the table.
The ONLY way I can see an empty seat being open between the Small Blind and the Big Blind would be if the UTG player on the just completed hand, who would be the Big Blind on the next hand, busted or left the table and the "Buy the Button" process DOES NOT APPLY.
The short answer is NO.
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Between the SB and BB? Wouldn't that just make you the BB?
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There are times where the UTG player leaves the table. That results in the seat immediately to the left of the SB being vacant and the BB skips that seat and moves to the seat 2 positions to the left of the SB. If a player came to that seat BEFORE the start of the deal, he could post the BB, the player to his immediate left would pull his chips back or he could straddle (if allowed by house rules) and would be the UTG for the current hand.
This circumstance is NOT part of the Buy the Button process, in fact it is a rather common occurrence at least where I play, it is.
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Chet, what you have said is correct but I am confused as to why you are even allowed to play between the BB and the SB. Most places wont allow you to play between the BB and the Button altogether unless you have the buy the button in your house rules.
Are you saying then that if you could buy the button in a casino and the example you gave, you post between the BB and SB making the BB the UTG can you buy the button next hand? Or are you the button?
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Andy asked: "Are you saying then that if you could buy the button in a casino and the example you gave, you post between the BB and SB making the BB the UTG can you buy the button next hand? Or are you the button?"
When you "Buy the Button" you are both the BB and the SB ON THAT HAND, you will be the Button ON THE NEXT hand. You are buying the right to have the button on the next hand. With the Dead Button Rule, as I understand it, a player can NEVER have the button and be required to post a blind ON THE SAME HAND.
Does that clear that up?
As to your confusion in the first paragraph of your last post: If the house you are playing in DOES NOT have a "Buy the Button" rule, you can NEVER enter the game (play a hand) in between the blinds (either one) and the button. You MUST wait for the button to pass before you can play a hand. If the dealer deals you hole cards in that situation, the hand should be declared dead and mucked immediately.
Any more question?
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No Chet, no more questions and thank you for clearing things up for me and thanks for the sarcasm at the end. Its ok now
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Sorry to bring this topic up again but what happens on the flop turn and river with the player who elected to buy the button? Does he/she go first or does the player to the left of him/her. I know that the UTG is the 1st player left of the player who bought the button (posted both small and big blinds) goes first pre flop.
Thanks :)
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Andy you are making this more complicated than it is. In a hand where "Buy the Button" applies, there is NO difference in the order of play than would be normal. Action for the Flop, Turn and River always will begin with the first player with a live hand to the left of the player with the button.
Chet
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Andy:
"Buying the Button" means that this player is posting BOTH the small and big blinds (for the current hand).
Let me give you an example:
Last Hand --
Seat 1 is the buttoin
Seat 2 is the SB
Seat 3 is the BB
Seat 4 is the UTG, etc.,etc.,
Seat 4 goes all in
It is folded around to Seat 3, the BB who calls the all in, Seat 4 has Seat 3 covered. The hand plays out and Seat 3 is busted and leaves the table.
Next Hand --
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 3 is vacant, but a new player has been assigned and is on his way to the table
Seat 4 posts the BB, etc, etc.
Upon arrival, before the dealer starts dealing any cards, the new player in Seat 3 announces he wants to "Buy the Button". The dealer says you have to post both blinds and the player says OK and does so. Seat 4 pulls his BB back. Seat 2 is still the button, Seat 3 posts both blinds and Seat 4 is now the UTG. The hand plays out.
Next Hand --
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 4 is the SB
Seat 5 is the BB
I hope this clears things up for you.
Chet... is your example right under the dead button rule? Now even I'm confused. When seat 3 was vacant, seat 4 was going to post the BB, and with the button in Seat 2, there would be only one blind. If before the start of the hand, a new player entered seat 3 and bought the button, of course, seat 4 would take his BB back. But then on the next hand, wouldn't we then have seat 4 post a BB, with seat 3 having the button, and there being no small? Otherwise, in this particular situation, we wouldn't have a 'dead button' because seat 4 would miss his BB entirely.
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K-Lo: The way it has always been explained to me is that the player "Buying the Button" is paying the BB for the player that would otherwise be responsible for it. In my example which you quoted below, the player in seat 3 is the BB and busts out, leaving the table. Without the Buy the Button rule, normally that seat would remain vacant for two hands, until the Button passes to seat 4. If a new player shows up for that seat he has to wait.
With the Buy the Button rule, that new player can post both blinds, the BB is live and the SB is dead, get a hand and on the next hand get the button. In effect, the new player has posted the BB for the player in seat 4. On the next hand, the player in seat 3 gets the button, seat 4 is the SB and the BB is in seat 5.
So yes, the player in seat 4 gets a free BB round. With this rule in effect, there is no "dead button" as would normally be the case.
Anyhow, this is how it has always been explained to me.
Chet
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Chet:
I can concur with everything you've said up until the conclusion that "there is no 'dead button' as would normally be the case". You could be right but I can't see how someone could ever miss having to post a BB in a 'dead button' movement. Isn't that kind of the point of not having a moving button?
I have always understood that "Buying the Button" is a new player paying the BB for the player that would otherwise be responsible for it, but in the 'classic' sense, it is when the new player is taking a vacant seat between what would otherwise be a player posting the SB and the button. So, it would actually makes more sense to me in a no-SB situation, that the new player would either: skip one hand, then buy the button (assuming he is not permitted to post on the button), and then play would go on as normal; or that the player would be permitted to wait a hand then post on the button, or wait two hands if not permitted to post on the button; or that the player would be permitted to play immediately but post a SB; or that the new player could simply post the BB and we still have no SB. All of these make more sense to me than allowing the new player to buy the button and then having an existing player miss a BB.
I have a lot less experience with cash than tourneys so of course I will defer to you guys, but the example is not making sense to me right now. I apologize for rehashing this. Appreciate the feedback.
K
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I'm more confused now than I was before. I'm trying to find the info that I had on buying the button (back when I thought I knew what I was talking about). The only thing that makes sense now is having two big blinds and a dead small. I don't believe that the player in seat 4 (in the example given) can escape posting a BB.
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Okay, I've waited long enough :D, does anyone have the answer to my unanswered question about the player that would be posting the BB if the intervening player did not buy the button? Look at my example above. both blinds are eliminated on the last hand, a player is seated in the SB position and wants to buy the button...he will post a dead small and a live BB. My question is, when does the Player that was in line to post the big, actually do so? Am I correct that there will be 2 BB's? I thought that I had this figured out but it is getting a bit unclear when multiple player's are eliminated.
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I don't understand why we wouldn't just have the new player just post one BB (no small). Next hand, he posts SB, and the player that would have posted the BB last time had the new player not arrived, wiill now post the BB. If the new player didn't arrive, there would have been one hand with no small blind anyways, so what's the difference between having the new player post the single blind if the original BB was going to post a single blind anyways?
*sigh* Sometimes I think players want to "buy the button" just to show off that they know the phrase, even in situations where it makes no sense to do so.
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Okay, so here we are one year after Wolfster made the original post and nobody knows how it works, and that includes the links that suggest the answers! The only thing that makes sense to me is having 2 BB's on the first hand.
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Okay, so here we are one year after Wolfster made the original post and nobody knows how it works, and that includes the links that suggest the answers! The only thing that makes sense to me is having 2 BB's on the first hand.
2 BB's + dead small? Or just 2 BB?
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K-Lo,
2 BB's + dead small. I'm trying to figure this out, but my confusion is coming from trying to eliminate the dead button, or the dead SB and I'm not sure that's how the buy the button rule works. I'm treating this as if it were the "moving button" (where I know there are 2 BB's and two SB's at times). I'm trying to play-out the following:
Seat 1 Button
Seat 2 SB
Seat 3 BB
Seat 4 UTG
During current hand both seat's 2 and 3 bust-out. A new player is seated in seat 2. What happens to the button? Who posts the Blinds?
Same scenario but a new player is seated in seat 3.
Can a new player actually come in on the button and post both the SB (dead) and the BB (like the moving Button) This would have the UTG from the last hand also post the BB (2 BB's + 1 dead SB).
Does the buy the button allow any dead button, and/or a dead blind when both blinds from prior hand bust-out?
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Nick:
For your examples, as I understand the process for "Buy the Button". The ONLY position that can "Buy the Button" is the vacant SB position. That position can post both blinds (dead SB, live BB) for the privilege of getting the button "on the next hand".
So, example 1, where both seats 2 and 3 bust and leave the table. A new player in seat 2 cannot Buy the Button as that will be the button seat for the upcoming hand (see definition above). This player seat 2 must want until the button passes.
Same situation, but the new player comes in to seat 3. This player can "Buy the Button" should he/she choose to do so by posting a dead SB and a live BB. The Button would be dead as it is physically located in the vacant seat 2 position. On the next hand the button would move to the seat 3 position. The new player in seat 2 can post or come in behind the button, the button is in the seat 3 position, the SB is in the seat 4 position and the BB is in the seat 5 position.
Granted there is an advantage to the player in seat 4 as this player is excused from paying the BB. However, there is no loss or gain to the table as a whole as both blinds are posted for each round.
If this house does not have a Buy the Button rule, then in your example, the button goes to seat 2 and is dead, the new player in seat 2 has to wait 1 hand until the button passes. The new player in seat 3 would have to wait 2 hands until the button passes. Seat 4 would be the lone BB (no SB). The next hand seat 2 can come in, seat 3 how has the dead button, seat 4 is the SB and seat 5 is the BB.
Under the Buy the Button concept, a new player CANNOT come in on the button and post both blinds. The ONLY place a new player can come in is if the SB position is vacant.
Hope this helps.
Chet
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Chet,
Thank you for your explanation. I never knew that a player was spared posting his BB with the "buy the button" rule. If you are correct, at least it makes sense. The next hand would then have the player that bought the button, on the button and the player that didn't have to post the BB on the last hand would be the SB...got it! If you're correct I can say I now understand "buying the button." Somehow I don't think it's right.
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Chet - I mean no disrepect, but I have to agree with Nick. I don't feel it is right... Is there some authority we can look to?
I am almost 99% certain ;) that the classic buy the button case is a new player entering between the button and the person that would be the SB if the new player had not entered. So in this case, he is entering in the "SB" position, but this is only when the next person would have posted the SB otherwise. When a SB would actually not be posted by anybody if the new player had not entered, because of the button movement and vacated seats, which is the situation in your example, I think we are talking about a completely different thing, something rarer and definitely not the classic buy the button scenario.
I just can't see a player missing the Big Blind in any "dead button" rotation. I don't know about moving button rotations, but one of the key characteristics of a dead button rotation is that the button is prevented from advancing under certain situations, so I can't see why this would be an exception in which the movement would be accelerated. I believe that the button will never advance until every non-new player at the table posts the BB in a dead button movement, no matter what.
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I can explain the moving button, with all it's complexities with 2 BB's and 1 SB, or 2 SB's and 1 BB, but this buying the button is not that easy to explain. I believe K-Lo is correct because after buying the button the player to your left will post the SB because he already posted the BB on the hand before you bought the button. What is interesting is the incorrect way people that say it's so easy explain it ...well...wrong!
Well gentlemen, I guess we are the chosen few to sort out these rules. That's okay with me, I'd like to change a whole bunch of them anyway ;D
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Guys: I cannot explain it any better than what I have said. I would think that there are some Poker Room Managers/Floor Persons that have experience with this and can clear it up. But I have done the best I can with my last explanation.
Sorry,
Chet
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K-Lo, Chet and anyone else that's interested;
Buying the Button: There are two possible situations when a player can buy the button:
#1 You miss your big blind and return to your seat. While you were gone, the player to your left was the BB. You will post a dead small and a big blind. The next hand you will have the button and the hand resumes as normal.
#2 The button is in seat 1 the SB is in seat 2 seat 3 is vacant and seat 4 is the BB. On the following hand a new player is seated in seat 3 and buys the button!. That's it!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQLQg4TGbis look at 33:30 Mike Matusow buys the button, as you can clearly see Phil doesnt post another BB. Under this rule does Mike act last and can check if nobody raises preflop? If everyone is still in the hand on the flop turn river would Mike go first or Phil?
I try to understand the Moving button rule but its hard to remember as it is complex. If we use Chets example of having a dead button situation and buying the button behind the vacant seat, this would not be possible in a moving button table as it would already have passed the player wanting to by the button. A player has physcially got to be at that seat.
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Wolfster,
I have explained rules for buying the button on the last post. If you are trying to compare this with the "moving button" you will become more confused. They are two different methods for moving the button. The moving button will never have a "dead" anything, because the button must move to the next active player. Buying the button may have a dead button.
I have not looked at the video yet, but I will as soon as I finish my reply. I know there are other's that you would rather get a response from, but apparently that's not going to happen. In their defense, the BOD are experts in tournament play only and this is not a tournament procedure.
I know the frustration of not understanding all of the different rules that pertain to button and blind procedures. It is obvious from your great question from over a year ago, has stumped most of us for a long time. I do believe that I can answer all of your questions regarding all of the different scenarios that now exist. I will now look at the video as you suggested and I'll see if I can figure it out.
Wolfster, I've just watched the video. To answer your questions; Mike is the only BB so he will have a raise option pre-flop. After the flop, Mike will have first option on each betting round.
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Thx for your response Nick much appreciated. If you were to buy the button though, could you do so when the croupier is dealing? Supposing cards have gone past the absent player because he wasnt there in time to request but in time before the last card was dealt. Would the croupier reshuffle, redeal and give the player a chance to buy the button?
Thanks.
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Wolfster:
Think about your question a bit. Since the only player who can "Buy the Button" is in the SB position AND since the player in the SB position receives the FIRST card of the deal, is there ANY situation in which you would go back and allow the player in that position to receive cards AFTER other players have received their cards (covering for an exposed card does NOT apply)?
If the player has not exercised his/her option to "Buy the Button" BEFORE the first card is dealt, the player cannot "Buy the Button". It is kind of like trying to place a straddle bet after you have looked at your hole cards.
Chet
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the player that can buy the button is the player between the small and the button.
if a player in the big blind busts out and a new player shows up before the new hand he can not buy the button, because the player to his left has not yet paid the big blind.
in the example chet gave that k-lo quated the new player has to wait for the button to pass to play he can't buy it he has to wait for the button to pass
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diz475,
Your statement: "the player that can buy the button is the player between the small and the button," needs more clarification. The new player seated in a vacant seat where the player to his left posted the BB on the last hand, and the player on the right was the SB. Example, last hand: button in 1 seat, SB in 2 seat, 3 seat empty,
seat 4 BB...
Next hand, new player seated in seat 3 is allowed to buy the button. However, if there were two empty seats between the Button and the SB, and both seats were filled before the next deal...that changes things. I believe that only one new player, seated closest to the BB from the last hand, can buy the button.
Example, Last hand: Button in 1 seat, SB in 2 seat, seats 3 and 4 are empty, seat 5 is the BB. Next hand, new players are seated in both empty seats.. Only the new player in seat 4 has the option to buy the button and the seat 3 player must wait for the button to pass.
Any thoughts?
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yes your explination is better nick, when i said between the small and the button its like the tourn. rule the only place you can't get a hand.
the second part with 2 seats i would ask seat 3 it he wants to buy it and then allow seat 4 to buy it on the next hand, just to give them both the option but only one can do it per hand
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Okay diz,
If you offer seat 3 the option, then seat 4 must sit out that hand, right? Remember, most players would rather wait for the button to pass. You might introduce such a rule where player 4 has the option, if 3 declines. Situation is not too common but, if you want to cover all your possibilities, why not?