PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: michaelgtjr on December 27, 2009, 09:48:36 PM
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Requesting clarification on Rule #8 verbal declaration
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.
Player stated pre-flop that player had pocket A's and went all in. Player was called and when the cards were revealed, player exposed suited 8-7. My confusion is that per the rule, verbal declaration is not binding, but it also says that the player miscalling their hand can be penalized. Is this a situation that the player should be penalized and when can then they declare the contents of their hands and not be binding? Please use examples if possible.
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Requesting clarification on Rule #8 verbal declaration
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.
Player stated pre-flop that player had pocket A's and went all in. Player was called and when the cards were revealed, player exposed suited 8-7. My confusion is that per the rule, verbal declaration is not binding, but it also says that the player miscalling their hand can be penalized. Is this a situation that the player should be penalized and when can then they declare the contents of their hands and not be binding? Please use examples if possible.
My interpretation of this rule is as follows: 1. Regardless of what a player says his/her hole card are, that hand is valued based upon the cards revealed at the showdown. Hence the term "Cards Speak".
2. Regarding Verbal Declarations - It is entirely possible, in fact I have done it myself, to misread hole cards, ie., read the "4" as an Ace or believe that the two hole cards of the same color are "suited" and say something accordingly. In my experience, most of the time this is a mistake as opposed to a deliberate attempt to induce someone to take some particular action. In fact, I believe I remember an article in the past year or so by T. J. Cloutier in which he gave an example of where he really thought his hole cards were suited and played the hand that way only to find out they were not at the showdown.
3. There are individuals who intentionally miscall their hands, saying some thing like I have a flush or a straight or a full house when they are on a stone cold bluff in a deliberate attempt to get another player to muck his/her hand before hands are tabled. It is those cases, where the last part of this rule comes into play. It gives the TD the 'authority' to invoke a penalty for this kind of 'angle shooting'.
The above usually comes into play at the end of a hand, but just before individual hands are tabled or shown.
Discussion of the content of hands during the course of play is covered by Rule 41, No Disclosure.
Hope this helps!
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Player stated pre-flop that player had pocket A's and went all in. Player was called and when the cards were revealed, player exposed suited 8-7.
Ok, no problem : as it was pre-flop (not at showdown), it's just an attempt to make his opponent fold. It's only a bluff attempt.
My confusion is that per the rule, verbal declaration is not binding, but it also says that the player miscalling their hand can be penalized. Is this a situation that the player should be penalized and when can then they declare the contents of their hands and not be binding? Please use examples if possible.
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.
I understand this rule only in the context of a mandatory showdown (always pay attention to the Rule section : here, it's "Pots / Showdown")
That rule want to say that if a player try to lie about his hand at showdown, without showing it quickly, making his opponent to fold, he cannot get the pot if it's proved that he lied and his hand was not the winning one.
Furthermore, if it was a deliberate lie, he should get a penalty for this bad behaviour (Chet's explanation #3 : "angle shooting").
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I remember reading this the other day on the hendon mob website. There is a feqature called you are the td and they ask some of the leading TD's to give their judgements on situations. Here the situation and the resulting replies from the TD's:
Situation: On the bubble in a big NLH competition Player A makes a big raise under the gun. The button moves all in announcing, ‘I’ve got aces, you had better pass if you want to make the money punk!’ You are called to the table, how do you rule?
Matt Savage:
This is one of those situations where it does happen and I would... strange, strangely enough I would go to the table and see the guys hand and its one of those things where... I’m not a fan of this if you're lying its OK and if your telling the truth then its not but I would see if the player had Aces and if he had Aces then I would give him a penalty that would definitely affect his spot in this tournament and you know I would let the hand play out and... I would ask to see the cards after the hand was finished.
Thomas Kremser:
I would give a warning to the player as he is not supposed to name his hand! Next time – time penalty!
Jack McClelland:
Both hands are live but button player receives penalty starting next hand.
Liam Flood:
It’s up to the other guy to call or pass. The fella who is announcing his aces might not be telling the truth; in fact I’m 99% certain he’s not telling in the truth!
Melanie Lofthouse:
You tell the player B that next hand he is sinbinned for 15mins. Player A has decision to make. If player A calls and player B has aces then I would give the pot to player A because you are not allowed to tell people what hand you have. TDA rules state that you are not allowed to mention your exact hand whilst the hand is in play. Just because he might like the guy and not want him to go out, doesn’t mean to say that he can tell him he has aces so he can fold. Not on.
Marty Wilson:
Is he bluffing or telling the truth? It’s only table talk and table talk’s encouraged. If he’s re-raised you’re taking the chance he’s got the aces anyway or it could be a poker move. I give player B the option of calling it.
The Mob Verdict:
We are presuming that the situation is heads up. You have to ask yourself why the TD has been called to the table. Is there any issue of collusion? If collusion is not as issue then we don’t really see a problem and we put it down as table talk.
We don’t buy into the ‘you can only lie’ rule – this is nonsense. The whole point of making statements is to deceive. It is over literal to be concerned whether they have named their hand correctly because whether they have named their hand correctly or not the intention is to deceive. The only thing that you really can’t say at the table is the F-bomb and that rule is nonsense as well.
It could possibly be seen as the same as exposing your hand, stopping any further action, and prejudicing other players who want to see players eliminated. However, what is the difference in a heads up situation for a player to say ‘you are definitely behind’ or ‘I have aces’? Where do you draw the line?
The important thing, as usual, is to have a clear rule that is enforced consistently. From the panel's point of view the most consistent ruling is that of a time penalty.
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The Mob Verdict:
We are presuming that the situation is heads up. You have to ask yourself why the TD has been called to the table. Is there any issue of collusion? If collusion is not as issue then we don’t really see a problem and we put it down as table talk.
These guys are NOT TDs. Everyone on the list DID NOT presume the table is heads up. Best advice: say nothing.
Melanie Lofthouse:
You tell the player B that next hand he is sinbinned for 15mins. Player A has decision to make. If player A calls and player B has aces then I would give the pot to player A because you are not allowed to tell people what hand you have. TDA rules state that you are not allowed to mention your exact hand whilst the hand is in play. Just because he might like the guy and not want him to go out, doesn’t mean to say that he can tell him he has aces so he can fold. Not on.
Where in the TDA rules does it state that if you tell the truth and get your hand exposed, it's dead? As good as that would sound, I don't think this is right.
Just my two cents, now where is my change?
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Requesting clarification on Rule #8 verbal declaration
Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.
Player stated pre-flop that player had pocket A's and went all in. Player was called and when the cards were revealed, player exposed suited 8-7. My confusion is that per the rule, verbal declaration is not binding, but it also says that the player miscalling their hand can be penalized. Is this a situation that the player should be penalized and when can then they declare the contents of their hands and not be binding? Please use examples if possible.
Hi Michael... Rule 8 as I normally use it is a SHOWDOWN rule.
In your example, what you have with the guy saying he has Aces and pushing all-in is verbal banter during a betting action, rather than at the showdown. The banter in your example could be punishable at the TD's discretion as a violation of one or more aspects of Rules 40 through 44, "Etiquette and Penalties".
The key for me is that a TD has discretion here, like any judge, to size up the situation and see if it merits a warning, a penalty, or is merely trash talk under Rules 40 through 44... AND, the risk is on the player making these nebulous statements. When a player makes a casual remark, perhaps they didn't intend any angle shoot, but they run the risk that such a careless statement will be interpreted as a punishable statement or a binding statement of action etc.
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bear in mind melanie lofthouse would be writing about this situation when the old rule was in place that an exposed hand was a dead hand, this rule is no longer valid. The statements from all the TD's are examples of train of thought for you to consider, rules change on a regular basis and therefore a previous decision by a previous TD should only be used in logic arguments unless the rule which was used is still valid.
The Hendon Mob is widely respected and does include many TD's and their interpretations of the event are correct in saying:
"The important thing, as usual, is to have a clear rule that is enforced consistently. From the panel's point of view the most consistent ruling is that of a time penalty."
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I don't think rule 8 handles this problem...I think it should go to rule 41:
41. No Disclosure
Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.
I would give a penalty to the player who said he had aces based on violation of rule 41.
Linda Johnson
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stumurr, fair enough. The Hendon Mob is based in England, if I remember correctly. Are you in England as well and if so (or not), do you have the website or blog spot they use? I would like to see some of the other things they asked of the TDs. Thanks in advance.
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Use this Link:
"http://www.thehendonmob.com/articles.html"
On the left side you will see a column of various topics under "Features". There are three (3) articles, "You are the Tournament Director", "You are the Tournament Director II" and "You are the Tournament Director III". As well as a whole bunch of other useful stuff
Hope this helps!!
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no prob, ditto chet's response, im in Scotland.
Best Regards
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Thank you, Stuamurr & Chet.
I went as far to bookmark this site......this is an interesting series.....thanks again
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No problemo,
Yeh, it's an interesting series with good insight from leading TD's especially Series 3 which sees inoput from Jack Effel, Matt Savage and Thomas Kremsler - 3 of the most important names in major tourneys.
It's good to read what they think when they go to the table and I think reading articles like this can help every TD
Best regards and Happy New Year
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I remember reading this the other day on the hendon mob website. There is a feqature called you are the td and they ask some of the leading TD's to give their judgements on situations. Here the situation and the resulting replies from the TD's:
Situation: On the bubble in a big NLH competition Player A makes a big raise under the gun. The button moves all in announcing, ‘I’ve got aces, you had better pass if you want to make the money punk!’ You are called to the table, how do you rule?
Liam Flood:
It’s up to the other guy to call or pass. The fella who is announcing his aces might not be telling the truth; in fact I’m 99% certain he’s not telling in the truth!
Melanie Lofthouse:
You tell the player B that next hand he is sinbinned for 15mins. Player A has decision to make. If player A calls and player B has aces then I would give the pot to player A because you are not allowed to tell people what hand you have. TDA rules state that you are not allowed to mention your exact hand whilst the hand is in play. Just because he might like the guy and not want him to go out, doesn’t mean to say that he can tell him he has aces so he can fold. Not on.
Marty Wilson:
Is he bluffing or telling the truth? It’s only table talk and table talk’s encouraged. If he’s re-raised you’re taking the chance he’s got the aces anyway or it could be a poker move. I give player B the option of calling it.
Please tell me that these are made up responses concocted by the author of the article, just like a TV Director does when directing a "Reality Show".
When did we start awarding pots to Player B, who called Player A, on the basis that Player A declared his hand and it happened to be the truth!?!? What??
When did table talk become encouraged? I mean, I'm all for talking at the table. Who wants to play at a morgue. But to me there's a bit of a difference between stating "I've got Aces, Kings, Queens .....etc etc" and stating "I've got a good hand" or "I've got the best hand" or "I got you beat". That's JMO.
The Mob Verdict:
We are presuming that the situation is heads up. You have to ask yourself why the TD has been called to the table. Is there any issue of collusion? If collusion is not as issue then we don’t really see a problem and we put it down as table talk.
This is a major difference between U.S. and European Rules. In the U.S. at many major events, it does not matter if they are heads up. An attempt to disclose your hand and influence the action is punishable by penalty no matter when it happens and is strongly discouraged. Dealing with lots of players from around the world at the WSOP, many players believe it is ok to disclose your hand and/or show your hole cards with action pending IF they are heads up with another player. In the U.S., this is only true in cash games. The reason is this: 1) In Cash Games, the only money/chips affected in the pot is only that of the players involved in the hand. 2) In Tournament, the money/chips affected in the pot is that of all the tournament participants.
We don’t buy into the ‘you can only lie’ rule – this is nonsense. The whole point of making statements is to deceive. It is over literal to be concerned whether they have named their hand correctly because whether they have named their hand correctly or not the intention is to deceive. The only thing that you really can’t say at the table is the F-bomb and that rule is nonsense as well.
First off, there is no 'you can only lie' rule. This is not a rule. The rule is you can not disclose the content of your hand. Stating that you have a specific hand ie, specific cards or hand ranking, is improper etiquette in tournament play.
We definitely don't want poker to become the NFL (No Fun League). However, players are expected to protect each others actions and interests at the poker table, along with the staff.
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bear in mind melanie lofthouse would be writing about this situation when the old rule was in place that an exposed hand was a dead hand, this rule is no longer valid. The statements from all the TD's are examples of train of thought for you to consider, rules change on a regular basis and therefore a previous decision by a previous TD should only be used in logic arguments unless the rule which was used is still valid.
The Hendon Mob is widely respected and does include many TD's and their interpretations of the event are correct in saying:
"The important thing, as usual, is to have a clear rule that is enforced consistently. From the panel's point of view the most consistent ruling is that of a time penalty."
Perhaps read all thread first before going on the rampage wsopmcgee - there is no difference between European and American rules - my games are run under TDA rules whilst there are differences between card-rooms, but this is true globally and to attribute this to 'European Rules' is rather arrogant, as there is no European Poker rules that I have ever been aware of. There are poorly educated players from every corner of the world, however as usuall the ones that get it wrong stand out the most - what about the 99% of players who never come to your or my attention? Do these players all come from the same location? Of course not.
Regards
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bear in mind melanie lofthouse would be writing about this situation when the old rule was in place that an exposed hand was a dead hand, this rule is no longer valid. The statements from all the TD's are examples of train of thought for you to consider, rules change on a regular basis and therefore a previous decision by a previous TD should only be used in logic arguments unless the rule which was used is still valid.
The Hendon Mob is widely respected and does include many TD's and their interpretations of the event are correct in saying:
"The important thing, as usual, is to have a clear rule that is enforced consistently. From the panel's point of view the most consistent ruling is that of a time penalty."
Perhaps read all thread first before going on the rampage wsopmcgee - there is no difference between European and American rules - my games are run under TDA rules whilst there are differences between card-rooms, but this is true globally and to attribute this to 'European Rules' is rather arrogant, as there is no European Poker rules that I have ever been aware of. There are poorly educated players from every corner of the world, however as usuall the ones that get it wrong stand out the most - what about the 99% of players who never come to your or my attention? Do these players all come from the same location? Of course not.
Regards
Rampage? Not in the least :) Just my sarcastic humor at work. I did read the entire thread. Rampages would include >:(
Nuff said there.
Attributing a generalization of a perceived acceptable practice in European Card Rooms I suppose could be construed as arrogant. But that's just been my experience at the Series. I'm beginning to think that the term Heads-up is being misused, in that, a tournament is never actually Heads-up until there are only two players left in the event.
To say that there are no European Rules is very cavalier as well. ;) If I didn't know better already I'd say your response was hinting that players across the pond (at least the ones I had to make rulings on) are poorly educated. To the contrary, I find them to be more educated and true students of the game.
Found some European Rules (http://www.europeanpokertour.com/about/rules/rules2.html)
There's a glaring difference in the rules adopted by the EPT and those of the TDA
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Rule 23. Verbal declarations regarding your own hand are not binding and commenting on the possible contents of an opponent's hand is allowed for the purposes of the televised tournament. However this only applies to players involved in the hand and not to players who have already passed their hand.
Rule 24. Players who are not in the hand may not discuss the hand in play until all action is completed. Discussing cards discarded is not allowed.
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Both sets of rules give the distinct impression that it is more than OK to discuss the content of your own hand as well as discuss the contents of any other players hand possibilities, so long as they are still active in the pot.
These rules are directly opposite of TDA Rule 41 with regard to disclosure of a live hand.
41. No Disclosure
Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.
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Rule 23. Verbal declarations regarding your own hand are not binding and commenting on the possible contents of an opponent's hand is allowed for the purposes of the televised tournament. However this only applies to players involved in the hand and not to players who have already passed their hand.
WSOPMCGEE --
I find the last five words of the 1st sentence most interesting "...purposes of the televised tournament..." Does this apply ONLY if the event is televised?
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There's a glaring difference in the rules adopted by the EPT and those of the TDA
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Rule 23. Verbal declarations regarding your own hand are not binding and commenting on the possible contents of an opponent's hand is allowed for the purposes of the televised tournament. However this only applies to players involved in the hand and not to players who have already passed their hand.
Rule 24. Players who are not in the hand may not discuss the hand in play until all action is completed. Discussing cards discarded is not allowed.
=====================================================================================================
Interesting, I was remotely aware of these wordings, I remember a friend of mine who played at London Clubs International in Glasgow and an opposing player read his hand aloud, my friend quoted me saying an untabled hand should not be read, especially with 2 other people still with active hands, The Card-room manager was called and ruled in the 'think alouds' favour!
I found this totally bewildering and unacceptable, I do not allow it, I play by TDA rules, which are far more robust. Just another situation of Card rooms having their own rules which are often outdated and not inkeeping with 'the trend' There are many UK TD's trying their best to unify our rules to TDA rules and I think we are getting there.
I trust we are proving that we are not too behind the times!
Regards
Stuart
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Rule 23. Verbal declarations regarding your own hand are not binding and commenting on the possible contents of an opponent's hand is allowed for the purposes of the televised tournament. However this only applies to players involved in the hand and not to players who have already passed their hand.
WSOPMCGEE --
I find the last five words of the 1st sentence most interesting "...purposes of the televised tournament..." Does this apply ONLY if the event is televised?
While I don't claim to be an EPT expert, I would have to presume because these events are associated with pokerstars that many of the events, if only the main, are televised.
Did some more research today and found some more rule sets to compare. Very interesting stuff.
From the Russian Poker Federation (http://www.pokerfederation.ru/ru/sportpoker/content91)
7.1.6. Умышленное вскрытие своих карт, либо объявление своих карт, до того как закончился круг торговли – наказывается штрафом в виде пропуска нарушителем одного круга раздач. То же нарушение, совершённое игроком два раза или более – наказывается штрафом в виде пропуска нарушителем двух кругов раздач.
Примечание 1: Если игрок вскрыл свои карты до окончания круга торговли, его карты уходят в пас, в исключительных случаях по решению главного судьи карты могут продолжить играть.
Примечание 2: Если игрок вскрыл свои карты до окончания круга торговли в ситуации, когда в игре осталось два игрока, тогда второй игрок имеет право либо продолжить игру по общим правилам, либо выбрать что его ставка олл-ин, либо отозвать свою ставку, которая не была уравнена.
ROUGHLY TRANSLATED via Google
7.1.6. Deliberate exposure of its cards, or declaration of their cards before the betting round is over - is punishable by a fine in the form of a circle passes violator distributions. The same breach committed by a player twice or more - punishable by a fine in the form of two circles crossing violator distributions.
Note 1: If the player has revealed his cards before the betting round, leaving his card in the pass, in exceptional cases by decision of the Chief Justice of cards can continue to play.
Note 2: If the player has revealed his cards before the betting round in a situation where the game left the two players, then the second player can either continue to play by common rules, or to choose his bet all-in, or withdraw its bid, which is not was equalized.
From the Federation Francaise des Joueurs de Poker (http://www.francepokertour.com/fpts5/docs/reglesffjp.pdf)
Les cartes dévoilées :
6.1. Il est strictement interdit de révéler son jeu (ou une partie de son jeu) en annonçant ou en montrant sa main avant la fin d'un coup (c'est à dire quand des joueurs peuvent encore miser). Cela est valable même si le joueur désirant dévoiler son jeu est le dernier à pouvoir encore miser (l'adversaire étant à tapis). Cet acte sera sanctionné (mais la main reste en jeu). Cette règle ("one hand - one player") a pour but d'isoler le joueur dans sa décision (pas de réaction des autres joueurs ou du public) et de combattre la collusion (pas de passage d'information).
ROUGHLY TRANSLATED via Google
The maps revealed:
6.1. It is strictly forbidden to reveal his game (or any part of his game) announcing or showing its hand before the end of a stroke (ie when players can still bet). This is true even if the player wishing to unveil his latest game is still able to build (the opponent is to carpet). This act will be penalized (but his hand remains in play). This rule ( "one hand - one player") is intended to isolate the player in its decision (no reaction from other players or the public) and combat collusion (not passing information).
These rule sets are more in accordance with TDA with some areas left open for interpretation as I'm not fluent in either Russian or French ;)
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wsopmcgee:
We tried using Google translations on the old TDA site and found that it was not accurate enough to get an accurate result. Our goal at that time was to translate the TDA rules into different languages and post them. Unfortunately, we had to postpone that project until we find individuals who can do a 'manual' translation to get an correct result.
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wsopmcgee:
We tried using Google translations on the old TDA site and found that it was not accurate enough to get an accurate result. Our goal at that time was to translate the TDA rules into different languages and post them. Unfortunately, we had to postpone that project until we find individuals who can do a 'manual' translation to get an correct result.
Ah. That is unfortunate.