PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: W0lfster on February 22, 2011, 04:19:48 AM
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I was down the pub last week and found that a player who repeatedly loud mouthed everyone while they were still in a hand. This is very bad etiquette and because of this he was given a warning then a 10 minute penalty. Although this is only pub poker I had to point out to the others that he has not been dealt in despite the fact hes been given a penalty. I immediately said he must be dealt in even though he is penalised, am I correct in my decision and why?
Do you have the same warning/penalties in cash games also?
Thank you
Andy :)
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They still get dealt in during a penalty and pay their blinds accordingly. Someone else will be able to explain the reasoning behind this.
In a cash game we dont really use a missed hand penalty, I prefer to issue a warning to the offender then the next step would be for them to leave the game. I dont really see the point in a missed hand or time penalty in a cash game, its just like taking a break from the game. But the warning that they will be asked to leave the game is usualy enough.
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Arrr ok thank you, but why do you not see the point in a time penalty in a cash game?
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Desi is right on. The player is dealt in and would also give up any ante in addition to his blinds. This will assure "proper card" to tournament players. In cash games, if a player continues with their antics after being warned; I have ordered the dealer to deal around the obnoxious player. If they don't get the message, they're gone. They will be "86 ed" by security, if necessary.
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yep, ditto Desi's response, However under TDA rules we issue a round penalty rather as a fixed time penalty, as this is quantified and measured as a fixed amount penalty, rather as a time penalty as this could differ by amount depending on how many hands are played.
In tournament play we still deal the player in as they still have chips, and are still participating in the tournament, so must still have cards issued each hand in order to keep the hand current, for example as one reasoning in a full table of 10 say you have 2 players on a 1 orbit penalty, if you didn't deal them in that would alter the play at the table as it would then be 8 handed and the range combinations of starting hands would change to 8 handed for example improving hands like KQ etc against the table next door that is still 10 handed to starting hands.
Ditto about the cash game penalty, they do little for the game, and as it's only the hand that's in play at the time, a warning then a "security to cardroom" is the usual method, in casinos there are plenty wishing to play at the ring tables therefore players who wish to misbehave should be quickly denied.
Regards
Stuart
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Very good point Stuart on the variance in hand combinations if they werent still dealt in, I shall remember that. Thank you all for your responses :)
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Another thing to mention is would you all tell the player to leave if he persists immediately or tell him to leave after the hand has finished?
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I say, hand plays then show him the door, pick up his chips and move on....
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In a tournament, wait till the hands finished before any penalty is issued, at a ring table, if your throwing someone out you do it then and there (or at least security does it then and there!)
Regards
Stuart
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Arrr ok thanks, this may sound a stupid question but in a tournament when someone has a penalty, does the button skip them or goes to their seat when it is their turn as if they hadnt left and was still playing?
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The player who is away from the table during the penalty is treated as though it would be any other seat where the player has, for example, left the table to go to the restroom. That button DOES NOT skip that player, nor is that player excused from paying any and all blinds and/or antes. Cards are dealt to the empty seat and as soon as the deal is complete, the dealer should scoop the players hole cards and immediately put them in the muck. This preserves the integrity of the hole cards, burn cards and board cards for the remaining players just as though the penalty had not occurred.
Hope this helps!!
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Does the dealer scoop the absent player's hole cards even before the UTG has had a chance to act, or when it becomes the absent player's turn?
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Immediately.
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the rule is that any player that is not AT his seat when the last card comes off the deck for the dealer the hand of the absent player is mucked immediatley
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ok but why is it immediately and not mucked until it is their turn?
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this is going to sound like a smart ass response but....cause that's the rule....
and it is TDA rule #22. A player must be at his seat by the time all players have been dealt complete hands in order to have a live hand..." and RROP Section 15:13 actually states the hand is to be killed immediately..
If the hand is already declared dead when the last card comes off the table then there is no reason to leave the cards loose on the table.
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Again, there are Different Rules depending upon the house you are playing in. This is why it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to have a complete set of HOUSE RULES.
I play in different places that use different rules. The TDA Rule is that you have to be "at your seat" by the time the last hole card is dealt. One local House Rule requires players to be "at their seat" at the time the first hole card is dealt.
As to your latest question, the reason for the dealer 'scooping' the hole cards of missing players IMMEDIATELY upon completion of the deal is to prevent a late player from claiming those cards. For example, in a NL game, the button is in seat 9, SB in 10 and BB in 1. Player 8 is missing. The deal is completed and player 8 is still missing. Player 2 folds, Player 3 says raise and while Player 3 is counting out the raise, Player 8 returns and grabs his hole cards. The dealer does not notice that Player 8 has returned. Players 4, 5, 6 and 7 fold. Now it is up to Player 8. He says "all-in". Player 9 says, "His hand is dead, he wasn't here on time" and a huge controversy erupts that should have been prevented by the dealer scooping Player 8's hole cards right away. See the point?
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That is a very good point Chet! I will remember that, Thank you all for your responses :)
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better explanation as to the why's and wherefore's for mucking the missing player's hand, Chet, thanks.
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For many years we did allow the cards to be live until it was your turn to act. Some practical issues that are resolved by having the player at the seat when all players have a completed starting hand are:
1) It eliminated the rule that says, "You may not call time from the rail".
2) It made it less likely that a player could get a peek at some of the other players' cards as they rushed back to be "in turn".
3) It eliminated the unfair circumstance where players were not at their seats, action was taken by the seated players and suddenly one or more players now show up. You should know how many opponents you are facing in any given hand before you commit chips to a pot.
4) There was a safety issue from players rushing back from a break, running to get seated before it became their turn, sometimes creating floor decisions resulting from that behavior.
In short, the rule to be "at your seat" seems to have been a good solution to a myriad of problems.
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Dave,
I remember that old rule. It used to read something like; the absent player could respond if he were within "earshot." I agree, the newer ruling is much better; kill the hand immediately after dealing the last down card to the button. If I can go back a few decades, I can recall when smoking at the table was a regular occurrance, even cigars. Back then, as a comon courtesy to the dealers, the only seats at the table that were non-smoking were the one seat, and the ten seat, (or even the eleven seat, that's right, some hold'em games seated 11). I mention this because when smoking at the table was no longer allowed, players used to run back to the table from the break area yelling "here I come," or "I'm here," or they would be really mad if you dealt them out, or killed their hand while they were sprinting back to their seat, still spewing their last gasp of smoke over the table. For some of todays dealers that complain about their job, how would you like to clean out ash trays on your breaks. Ah, the good old days.
Dave, you are absolutely correct when you said; " In short, the rule to be "at your seat" seems to have been a good solution to a myriad of problems.
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My question is somewhat related to this earlier topic, so I thought I'd continue it here. (Mike - please move this if it is not appropriate to post here).
This is a bit of an open-ended question, but I'm wondering if I could get some of your thoughts on managing these types of problem situations, specifically, when you find yourself in a situation where you expect that you might have to eject someone from a tournament and/or venue, as that person's unacceptable behavior begins to escalate, and ultimately he is uncooperative and becomes verbally abusive. Any tips? Do you follow a specific protocol to control the situation (e.g. perhaps asking to talk the offender away from the table, pausing the clock, etc.)? What if "security" is not readily or immediately available? Thanks in advance.
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In a situation where you expect that you might have to eject someone from a tournament and/or venue, as that person's unacceptable behavior begins to escalate, and ultimately he is uncooperative and becomes verbally abusive. Any tips?
The closest I come to having a protocol for these situations is to faithfully utilize our penalty options. The need to issue a warning for conduct is also a wake up to the TD; is this player intoxicated, angry or just choosing to be abusive? It is the correct time to privately spell out what will occur if the behavior is repeated, i.e. you will receive a full round penalty, you are very close to disqualification, etc.
Our first priority should be to maintain the peace and keep all of our customers coming back. The game is conducive to temporary loss of emotions but players are entitled to play the game without threats, criticism, or abuse.
Once a player earns a one round penalty for unacceptable behavior, the warning phase should be over, any further penalty should be severe enough to mean business. Unless the offender has an enormous chip stack, two rounds can be a devastating consequence for poor conduct. I have had players blind out on a penalty late in events but I have never had to use progressive penalties to get compliance.