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POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: DCJ001 on September 19, 2010, 09:44:04 PM

Title: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 19, 2010, 09:44:04 PM
During a WPT main event, the following occurred:

(http://grab.by/grabs/0be75b769b946c2b076086e26e7127f1.png)

One perspective is that this is common table chatter.

Another perspective is that the player who said that he had an ace, in order to get a reaction from the other player or for any other reason, while the action was incomplete, violated a TDA rule:

41. No Disclosure

Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.


What's your opinion? Thanks.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: chet on September 19, 2010, 10:46:27 PM
My opinion:

His actions are in violation of the TDA rule you quoted.  He should have received at least a warning, if not a penalty. 

That said, the camera has, in some cases, caused actions which violate a rule to be overlooked if it makes for more interesting TV.
There are many instances where a rule has not been enforced at televised events which would be enforced if the event were not on TV.  Unfortunately, such is life.

Hope this helps!!
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 20, 2010, 11:31:41 AM
My opinion:

His actions are in violation of the TDA rule you quoted.  He should have received at least a warning, if not a penalty. 

That said, the camera has, in some cases, caused actions which violate a rule to be overlooked if it makes for more interesting TV.
There are many instances where a rule has not been enforced at televised events which would be enforced if the event were not on TV.  Unfortunately, such is life.

Hope this helps!!

Unfortunately, in my opinion, hands like this only become more interesting for TV because rules have been broken.

This particular hand occurred on day 1 of the event. Although the WPT has begun filming hands as early as day 1, this hand was probably not captured for TV.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 20, 2010, 02:14:24 PM
 I think the fact that there were only two players in the hand, and one was all-in, and there was still another card to come, make this nothing more than table talk. It is not like a player had a nut hand and was trying to bait the other player. I think that the same action, with other players involved, and/ or all community cards on the board, would bring a penalty, but I don't see anything wrong with what Eric Buchman did. He had the worst hand (with a big draw), and got there.
 I have a tendency to be more lenient when there are anly two players involved in a hand.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: chet on September 20, 2010, 02:26:24 PM
Nick:

I don't necessarily disagree with the concept being different when players are heads up, but that is not the way the rule is written. 

If the TDA wants to adopt a different version of Rule 41 for heads up play so be it and it can certainly be proposed for the next TDA Summit.  In the meantime, the rule does not accommodate different interpretations depending upon the number of players. 

One of the reasons Matt, Linda, Jan and Dave got together and created the TDA in the first place was to bring consistency to the interpretation of the rules for tournament poker.  There is nothing wrong with different interpretations, but there is a definite problem when the interpretations are inconsistent.  Therefore, I suggest this be discussed at the next Summit and the members can decide.

Hope this helps!!
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 20, 2010, 03:07:33 PM
Chet,
 I applaud what the TDA has accomplished. I will continue to make my feelings known if it will improve the integrity of the game. The subject that we are discussing is a perfect example why some rules have to be clarified.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 20, 2010, 03:11:52 PM
I think the fact that there were only two players in the hand, and one was all-in, and there was still another card to come, make this nothing more than table talk. It is not like a player had a nut hand and was trying to bait the other player. I think that a warning that the same action with other players involved, or all community cards on the board, would bring a penalty. I don't see anything wrong with what Eric Buchman did. He had the worst hand (with a big draw), and got there.
 I have a tendency to be more lenient when there are anly two players involved in a hand.

The question is not about what Buchanan did. Buchanan asked the other player if he had an ace. While the other player was considering whether or not to call Buchanan's all in, the other player said that he did have an ace, possibly/probably looking to get a reaction from Buchanan.

So you believe that, as long as it's heads up in a tournament, players can disclose their holdings and maybe even show their hands while the action is incomplete?
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 20, 2010, 03:20:38 PM
No, not in all situations. In the situation described in the original question then I would say, yes it's okay.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 20, 2010, 04:30:01 PM
No, not in all situations. In the situation described in the original question then I would say, yes it's okay.

Are you saying that disclosing and showing cards with incomplete action while heads up in a multi table tournament is okay, despite the following rules saying otherwise:

41. No Disclosure

Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

Or are you saying that the rules should be changed from what they are?
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 20, 2010, 07:08:40 PM
DCJ001,

 I'm not saying that at all. I'm trying to point out that many of the rules are not intended for the situations that we try to use them for. I think that the disclosure rules are for players that show cards to a player (when there is still action pending and all players have not seen the cards), or they announce what they had when they folded. These are serious issues. I don't think that is the same situation as described in the initial question. Remember, one player is all-in and there is still a card to come. The hand was not complete in any way. I wonder if it would have made a difference if Eric Buchman went all-in, then turned his cards over for his opponent to see before he called?
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 20, 2010, 10:43:26 PM
Nick.

I, respectfully, believe that you're confusing what is allowable in home games or fast and loose bar or club games with they way that things should be in organized tournaments in reputable casinos, such the WSOP, WSOPE, WSOP Circuit, WPT, etc.

Quite often, when debating issues like this, people have opposing views and, no matter how many examples or explanations are given by either side, many people still stubbornly hold to their positions, myself included.

If you, or anyone, believes that the TDA rules should be written more clearly to apply to specific situations, such as the ones that have been and are discussed in this forum, I encourage everyone to make the suggested changes.

I thank everyone for their opinions and their input.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Guillaume Gleize on September 21, 2010, 01:27:02 AM
Hello,

Here I really don't see any major fault!

I work with the rules and THE SPIRIT (goal) of the rules.
The spirit of the "no disclosure" rule is:

1- to stop any collusion between cheating players!
2- to keep the initial spirit of the game of "one hand one player"!
First exemple: a possessor of the nuts on a drawing flop terrorized by possible bad beat would say: "get all away: I got the nuts!"
Second exemple: a possessor of second or third hand hand facing an all-in and while thinking about calling or not would loudly tell his hand trying to get reaction and help not only from his opponent but also from all the other players and spectators!
That's not anymore poker for sure!

Here Buchman asking the question is not himself violating the rule: you can speak, you can ask opponent to show you their cards or underwears!
His question also can be:
- 1st degree (here it's the case: he really wants to now the situation of player B and his odds in case of a call).
- Confusing question (wich is very common : you know thoses players looking afraid and asking if you have such hand ... wich they beat anyway with a monster hand)

... So player B must be very carefull with this kind of question (meaning quite nothing) ...

Here player B answering with "Yeah" is trying to catch any reaction from Buchman and can be
- 1st degree (here it's the case and he actually is very lightly violating the rule of no disclosure)
- Confusing wrong answer (wich is common and legal)

It's only my opinion but:
I really don't see here any MAJOR violaion of the SPIRIT of the rule!

I would give a warning to player B for revealing a part of his hand (the Ace). And would ask (with respect) to Buchman not to try anymore to make the player break the rule and the old and beautifull spirit of poker: ONE HAND - ONE PLAYER!

With my best regards,

GG
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 21, 2010, 12:17:16 PM
DCJ001,
 I agree that cash games and house games may have different rules from the more sophisticated and organized tournaments. However, I am trying to base my decision on all of the facts that I can gather from the dealer, and the players at the table. Most of the time, the floor is not present when an irregularity takes place at a table. As I look over the original question, I can honestly say that I see nothing wrong with any of the actions of either player. I will try to break it down logically, based on head to head action. If Eric Buchman went all-in and then exposed his hand before the opposing player called;
           1) His hand would still be live.
           2) His action would affect no other player.
Other rules of non-disclosure are very serious violations of poker etiquette and deserve stiff penalties or even expulsion from the game. In my opinion, any player showing his hand to one active player and not another. Even exposing a single card, or discusing what was discarded is far more damaging and could alter the outcome of a hand.

 The rules of the TDA are great rules for all cardrooms to follow. I think that we can find a way, to list some examples along with each rule to help clarify specific situations that the rule is intended for. Not necessarily change it, or even amend it, just be more specific.
 
Nice discusion.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 22, 2010, 11:52:33 AM
Well, I was going to stop beating this dead horse. But I thought that, maybe, I'd get Matt Savage's opinion on this hand.

Matt said:
Quote
Well he definitely broke the rule and would not have a dead hand but should be subjected to a one round penalty.

Matt
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 22, 2010, 03:58:35 PM
I'll go along with that. I often wonder how they handle all those penalties when the games are down to only a few people. I was never a big fan of penalties in later rounds of tournaments, especially when that player is sitting out, and the next player eliminated puts him in the money.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: chet on September 22, 2010, 09:39:59 PM
Nick:

As far as I am concerned if a player violates a rule and a penalty should be assessed, it doesn't make any difference to me what round we are in.  It could be the last two players standing at the final table, it makes not a speck of difference in my opinion.

If some players know that you won't enforce the tournament rules after some point, they will wait until the magic time and push the envelope.  Pretty soon you have a problem of not running events that are on the 'up and up', and your reputation is shot.  I know that I will not play in any house, event or with any TD that has a questionable reputation.

Hope this helps!!
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 23, 2010, 05:25:05 AM
Chet,
 If you have players that are causing that many problems and are repeat offenders, they shouldn't be allowed to play in any tournaments. How do you penalize a player for one round when there are only two players left?

 We need rules but, give them a warning first. If they don't listen or become repeat offenders, throw the book at them.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Stuart Murray on September 23, 2010, 10:36:57 AM
I would give a penalty to the buchman's opponent in this situation as he has violated the one player to a hand rule, buchman did nothing wrong in my book by asking questions but his opponent stating he did have the ace exposed his hand.

Irrespective of whether heads up or not I do not allow players to divulge their holdings until showdown.

Regards
Stuart
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 23, 2010, 11:59:03 AM
Stuart,

 If Buchman's opponent lied about his holding would you give him a penalty? How does that violate one player to a hand rule? IMO Buchman did nothing wrong, and neither did his opponent. Why? Because they were head to head.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 23, 2010, 12:18:47 PM
I'll go along with that. I often wonder how they handle all those penalties when the games are down to only a few people. I was never a big fan of penalties in later rounds of tournaments, especially when that player is sitting out, and the next player eliminated puts him in the money.

The number of players at the table, or the tournament, is irrelevant.

A one round sit-out penalty has basically the same result either way. And by not assessing penalties in the later rounds of tournaments, when players break the rules, a TD would be encouraging anarchy. Players should believe that, if they do something that they should not, they will pay the price.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 23, 2010, 12:44:57 PM
Why don't you tell me how you hand out a one round penalty when there are two players left in the tournament? How can you say the number of players is irrelevent? Also, instead of saying the same thing over and over can you tell me how the one player per hand rule was violated. Matt Savage wanted to penalize Buchman and Stuart wants to penalize the other guy. Can you lie about your holding during table talk? What's next, only the truth may be spoken when answering a question from an opponent.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 23, 2010, 05:10:58 PM
1. Why don't you tell me how you hand out a one round penalty when there are two players left in the tournament?

2. How can you say the number of players is irrelevent?

3. Also, instead of saying the same thing over and over can you tell me how the one player per hand rule was violated.

4. Matt Savage wanted to penalize Buchman and Stuart wants to penalize the other guy.

5. Can you lie about your holding during table talk?

6. What's next, only the truth may be spoken when answering a question from an opponent.

Nick. You're making assumptions which may not be true. And I'm surprised that you're asking the questions that you're asking. I'll do my best to address your concerns one at a time:

1. When heads-up, a player sits out for one round by not playing the next two hands, and losing the corresponding blinds and antes. If I were a TD in this situation, the two hands would not be dealt. The blinds and antes would be put in by both players, and the two pots would be pushed to the winning player. Then the next hand would be dealt.

2. The number of players is irrelevant. Sitting out for one round can happen with any number of players.

3. I never said that the one player per hand rule was violated. The rule that was violated was the rule that players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not disclose contents of live or folded hands,

4. Matt didn't say that he would have penalized Buchman. He would have penalized the player who said that he held an ace, possibly/probably looking to get a reaction from Buchman.

5. Yes. Players can lie about their hands. But the TDA rules state that players cannot disclose the cards that they hold when the action is incomplete.

6. No.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Stuart Murray on September 23, 2010, 05:18:14 PM
lying (or telling the truth) about your holdings I view both as violation of one player to a hand.  There is nothing wrong with asking questions at the table when heads-up, however phrases such as I put you on Ace King from the flop etc should be avoided, as again they may cause a re-action.

Two examples I do not find acceptable:
q"What have you got?" a"Just a big pair", the answering player then goes on to showdown the nut flush - misleading but under tda a violation so could be liable to a penalty.
q"Have you got an ace?" a"could have, then again could just have 5 high" in this situation i would say that only the questioning player has violated etiquette as the answer was deceptive

Issuing a one round penalty when the tournament is heads-up will simply be a case of transferring the cost of the orbit to the other player (orbit = the total amount of blinds and antes a player requires to have one round of the button).

I think the best approach (unless the players are familiar with each other (where the envelope often gets pushed in just the right ways)) is to issue penalties for getting involved in conversations regarding your or others holdings.

Regards
Stuart
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 23, 2010, 07:26:49 PM
DCJ001
 I enjoy the discussion and I will always voice my opinion when I think I'm right. First of all, you miss quoted Matt Savage. Secondly, are you saying that the blinds and ante's of the player you are penalizing are surrenderd to the other player, uncontested? Number three; You did mention the one player to a hand rule on one of your earlier posts. I don't understand how a player can lie about his holding, but if he tells the truth he is violating a TDA rule?

The fact that we are in such a heated discusion about Rule #41 indicates to me that it needs some work. If it is unclear to us, how do we expect players to understand the meaning? I once heard a responce on another post that mentioned the following, "any player announcing their hand to the table was the same as showing the cards to the table." The only difference is, they could be lying.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 24, 2010, 11:58:17 AM
DCJ001
I enjoy the discusion and I will always voice my opinion when I think I'm right.

1. First of all you miss quoted Matt Savage.

2. Secondly, are you saying that the blinds and ante's of the player you are penalizing are surrenderd to the other player, uncontested?

3. Number three; You did mention the one player to a hand rule on one of your earlier posts.

4. I don't understand how a player can lie about his holding, but if he tells the truth he is violating a TDA rule?

5. The fact that we are in such a heated discusion about Rule #41 indicates to me that it needs some work. If it is unclear to us, how do we expect players to understand the meaning?

6. I once heard a responce on another post that mentioned the following, "any player announcing their hand to the table was the same as showing the cards to the table." The only difference is, they could be lying.

1. I did not misquote Matt Savage.

2. When a player sits out for one round, he/she plays the blinds  and antes for the entire round. While he sits out for the entire round, the player is unable to compete for these blinds and antes.

3. "One player to a hand" is one of four elements referred to in TDA rule 41. I never said that "one player to a hand" applies in this hand. Nor did I say that either player should be penalized for violating this element of rule 41.

4. If you sincerely don't understand how a player can lie about his holding, but if he tells the truth he is violating a TDA rule, you are either new to poker, or you have been receiving guidance from confused individuals over a period of time, or you have not read and made an effort to understand the TDA rules.

5. Players should be expected to understand the rules. If they don't, competent TDs have the responsibility to enforce the rules, and to offer clarity to encourage an understanding of the rules. One of the problems with this is that many players express their own interpretations of the rules in the hopes that rulings will be made in their favor. And some dealers, floor people, and TDs have their own interpretations of the rules to make rulings in accordane with they ways that they feel that poker should be played.

6. This goes back to concern 4. in this post. If a player truthfully announces the cards that he/she holds, it's the same as showing his/her cards, which is against the rules. And, if he/she is lying, he/she has not shown his/her cards. Not showing one's hand is not against the rules.

If anyone has a difficult time in understanding these concepts, after attaining TDA certification, I wonder if they had help in completing the test (which is not easy), or if they did a lot of guessing and just got lucky.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 24, 2010, 12:14:19 PM
DCJ001,

 I guess that you and I will continue to disagree. It's unfortunate when comon sense and logic are cast aside in favor of a rule that you don't understand. If the players just played the game instead of "talking trash" and throwing the BS around, the game would be fun and entertaining like it used to be. As far as my credentials, I was teaching dealers when you were an infant. If you would like to continue this discusion without annoying other members, send me an email....nickscasinopoker@comf5.com....
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 24, 2010, 12:50:28 PM
DCJ001,

 I guess that you and I will continue to disagree. It's unfortunate when comon sense and logic are cast aside in favor of a rule that you don't understand. If the players just played the game instead of "talking trash" and throwing the BS around, the game would be fun and entertaining like it used to be. As far as my credentials, I was teaching dealers when you were an infant. If you would like to continue this discusion without annoying other members, send me an email....nickscasinopoker@comf5.com....

Nick.

I've correctly, in my opinion, answered at least a dozen of your questions or concerns.

Unfortunately, some people don't understand that theres a difference between the way that things are and they way that some people would like them to be.

Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 24, 2010, 01:08:12 PM
I guess I'm a little slow on this one. Who, in your opinion is the offending player, the one that asked what the other player had in his hand, or the player that answered him? I need to know who you are going to penalize. I would also like to know where in the TDA rules this is covered.

Would you look at Matt's response for me please, because what I see is Matt talking about Buchman's hand not being dead but he should get a penalty.

Why don't we just come out with a rule that players can not speak about their hand (truth or not) and they can't ask opponents about their holding. I will wait for your answers on the questions above.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 24, 2010, 03:46:46 PM
I guess I'm a little slow on this one. Who, in your opinion is the offending player, the one that asked what the other player had in his hand, or the player that answered him? I need to know who you are going to penalize. I would also like to know where in the TDA rules this is covered.

Would you look at Matt's response for me please, because what I see is Matt talking about Buchman's hand not being dead but he should get a penalty.

Why don't we just come out with a rule that players can not speak about their hand (truth or not) and they can't ask opponents about their holding. I will wait for your answers on the questions above.

Okay, Nick.

I don't know how someone who has been teaching dealers since I was an infant (are you sure about that?) can still not understand the concepts at hand.

To my knowledge, players can never be penalized for asking any question when a hand is being played by two players. But telling another player what cards you hold is against the rules in a tournament, regardless of the number of players in the hand.

You have made reference to Matt's response to my question, but you have never quoted it in any of your posts. I contacted Matt directly and asked:
Quote
Hey Matt.

I'd like your opinion about the following hand:

(http://c0848462.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/0be75b769b946c2b076086e26e7127f1.png)

Quote
After one player pushed all in, he asked the other player if he held an ace. While considering a call, the other player said that he did hold an ace, possibly/probably attempting to get a reaction from the other player.

TDA rules state:

41. No Disclosure

Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

One perspective is that the player who disclosed that he held an ace was just making common table chatter. Another viewpoint is that disclosing one's holdings, or showing one's cards when the action is incomplete violates the rules.

What do you think?

Matt's response to me was:

Quote
Well he definitely broke the rule and would not have a dead hand but should be subjected to a one round penalty.

My original question, and the question to Matt, was about the player who disclosed that he held an ace.

It seems that you've been wrongly focusing on the last line in rule 41:

"The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced."

But the only reason that this line has been included in my posts is because it is part of the rule. The applicable concepts of rule 41, in this scenario, are the parts that relate to disclosing one's holdings.

As someone who has been teaching dealers for twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, or sixty years (based on your guess of my age compared to your age), you should know that you should be looking at all aspects of a situation and use all of your knowledge and experience to make a decision, and not jump to conclusions. As far as your credentials, Nick, you may have been teaching dealers for most of your life. But that doesn't mean that you know what you're doing.

I have never meant to insult you. My goal has been to encourage you to think about the concepts that have been discussed, and to review the TDA rules and to gain an objective understanding of what they mean. I'm not perfect, and I don't know everything. But I'm done in this thread because, at this point, if the concepts and TDA rules are still not understood, there's nothing that I can say to make it happen.

When I posed the original question in this thread, and to Matt directly, I knew what the correct answer was. I was merely interested in seeing the responses that the question would produce.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 24, 2010, 07:48:54 PM
DCJ001,
 I must say, I am surprised at your response. You claim that you have tried to answer a dozen questions that I had, but I just don't get it. The fact is you didn't answer anything. If you look at my post #12, you will see that I was talking about Buchman's hand. Your next response (post #13), was the one that you asked Matt about. Based on my question, I see Matt refering to Buchman's hand because that was the only hand that I ever mentioned as remaining live even if it were turned over on the table before the other player called. When you give an answer to a question, try to make it more clear so even a simple old man like myself can understand what you are trying to say. You still have not answered anything. What you have accomplished is an image of yourself as a person of little tolerance to a good debate. Perhaps the time that you wasted on this ridiculous subject could have been better spent at an anger management class. Thanks for all of your input. I still don't know what you think about this situation. Maybe you can ask Matt to reply on this. From now on I will only comment when I think that someone is in need of an honest opinion and good advice.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 24, 2010, 10:57:42 PM
If you look at my post #12, you will see that I was talking about Buchman's hand.

Your next response (post #13), was the one that you asked Matt about.

Based on my question, I see Matt refering to Buchman's hand because that was the only hand that I ever mentioned as remaining live even if it were turned over on the table before the other player called.

My question, as posed to Matt, as copied and pasted from my previous post, did not refer to Buchman's hand:

Quote
One perspective is that the player who disclosed that he held an ace was just making common table chatter. Another viewpoint is that disclosing one's holdings, or showing one's cards when the action is incomplete violates the rules.

What do you think?

Matt's response to my question, with regard to the caller in the hand, who disclosed that he held an ace, as copied and pasted from my previous post, was:

Quote
Well he definitely broke the rule and would not have a dead hand but should be subjected to a one round penalty.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 26, 2010, 02:51:18 PM
DCJ001,
 Your QUOTE to Matt that you posted on Reply #30 was never seen by anyone on this subject until now. I'd like to know how Matt feels about this incident, and who was at fault and what he would have done.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 28, 2010, 07:29:01 PM
DCJ001,
Your QUOTE to Matt that you posted on Reply #30 was never seen by anyone on this subject until now.

I'd like to know how Matt feels about this incident, and who was at fault and what he would have done.

I posted Matt's answer to my question, as I posted it, on September 22, 2010. It has been seen by everyone reading this thread for the last six days.

If you'd like to know how Matt feels about this incident, and who was at fault and what he would have done, you can reread my question to him and his answer to me, as follows. Or you can ask him yourself.
Quote
Hey Matt.

I'd like your opinion about the following hand:

(http://c0848462.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/0be75b769b946c2b076086e26e7127f1.png)

Quote
After one player pushed all in, he asked the other player if he held an ace. While considering a call, the other player said that he did hold an ace, possibly/probably attempting to get a reaction from the other player.

TDA rules state:

41. No Disclosure

Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

One perspective is that the player who disclosed that he held an ace was just making common table chatter. Another viewpoint is that disclosing one's holdings, or showing one's cards when the action is incomplete violates the rules.

What do you think?

Matt's response to me was:

Quote
Well he definitely broke the rule and would not have a dead hand but should be subjected to a one round penalty.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 29, 2010, 04:35:45 AM
  Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 07:08:40 pm »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DCJ001,

After you answered all of my questions, this is still how I feel.

  I'm trying to point out that many of the rules are not intended for the situations that we try to use them for. I think that the disclosure rules are for players that show cards to a player (when there is still action pending and all players have not seen the cards), or they announce what they had when they folded. These are serious issues. I don't think that is the same situation as described in the initial question. Remember, one player is all-in and there is still a card to come. The hand was not complete in any way. I wonder if it would have made a difference if Eric Buchman went all-in, then turned his cards over for his opponent to see before he called?

IMO, neither player did anything wrong, but if you find fault with one player, I would blame Buchman.

What you're saying is; after going all-in, a player can ask the opposing player what he has, but if he responds, he warants a penallty?

I guess no other members want to respond. They're leaving it up to us.

One of the biggest problems IMO is, the answers are just as vauge and unclear as some of the rules. Why not name the guilty party instead of saying "he definetly broke the rules." If the answer were more clear, we wouldn't be continuing this argument.

 
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 29, 2010, 11:12:23 AM
DCJ001,

 Would you care to identify yourself? I offered you a chance to vent, our say whatever you want by sending me an email, but you won't do that. If Matt or someone else from the TDA would have responded this issue could have been settleded log ago.
 I intend to respond to subjects that pertain to poker, not the insults from some unknown member who uses letters and numbers for identification.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: chet on September 29, 2010, 09:07:15 PM
ENOUGH ALREADY!!

Both of you please be respectful.  I think this is one of those situations where you two should agree to disagree.  Perhaps someone will propose some clarifying language that can be brought up for discussion at the next Summit to resolve this type of situation.

Lets let this dog lie and move on.

Chet
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Stuart Murray on September 30, 2010, 10:37:12 AM
Agreed with Chet

Regards
Stu
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: DCJ001 on September 30, 2010, 10:42:11 AM
Agreed with Chet.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 30, 2010, 01:45:24 PM
I also agree, and I've sent an email to Chet thanking him for reminding me what this forum is for.
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Matt Savage on September 30, 2010, 07:19:10 PM
Wow, I apologize for being absent for too long as I have been on the road for 45 days. Nick, I have to say here that I agree with DJC001 and that the player disclosing the hand is the one that gets penalized. I wish I had seen this sooner so that the back and forth would not have gotten out of hand and I do feel that BOTH of your contributions have been good for the forum.

I think rule #41 is pretty clear about this point

a couple more points

A tournament is NEVER heads up until 2 players are left and at that point you ARE free to talk about your hand. Before that point every decision you make affects the equity of everybody in the tournament.

You are NOT allowed to lie about your hand or tell the truth with action still pending
Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Nick C on September 30, 2010, 07:32:34 PM
Matt,
 I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about a tournament is never heads up until two players are left. I always said that heads up is more open because no player can be caught in the middle. The situation above rules nothing wrong with asking a player what he has, and it's okay if he tells you, but he can't show you, is that right?

 I also don't understand exactly what you are saying about NOT being allowed to lie about your hand, or tell the truth with action pending. Does that mean that you can tell the truth about your hand after you bet, or before you bet? I guess I don't get it.
I saw it as a player going all-in, with one card to come and oposing one player. While the player is contemplating whether he will call, the all-in player asks if he has an ace. He said "yes, I call "and showed the ace nine. Are you saying that, had he just responded with an answer (before calling), instead of showing the card, it would have been okay?

I have looked over your last statment and have come to the conclusion that, you can't talk about any cards you are holding. If you can't lie and can't tell the truth.

I thought that I would modify this post rather than start another. The following is what leads to my confusion. This is a post from a prior incident on the Hendon Mob Site: Situation: On the bubble, in a big NLH competition, Player A makes a big raise under the gun. The button moves all in announcing, ‘I’ve got aces, you had better pass if you want to make the money punk!’ You are called to the table, how do you rule?

Matt Savage:
This is one of those situations where it does happen and I would... strange, strangely enough I would go to the table and see the guys hand and its one of those things where... I’m not a fan of this if you're lying its OK and if your telling the truth then its not but I would see if the player had Aces and if he had Aces then I would give him a penalty that would definitely affect his spot in this tournament and you know I would let the hand play out and... I would ask to see the cards after the hand was finished.

Title: Re: Disclose contents of live or folded hands
Post by: Martin L. Waller on October 26, 2010, 01:19:46 PM
Hi fellows,

Wow, I’m sorry I missed this last month. I’m just glad you were not in the same room together. We would have to call the floor on you.

Any way, I had a similar incident happen at a WSOP event in New Orleans. The floor came over and told the responding player that if he turns his cards over and has an Ace he would be penalized. The player turned over K-T, no penalty. The floor then instructed the player asking the question that he couldn’t ask again without receiving a penalty.

I don’t think we should have too many instances where we have rules when there are 3 or 4 players and another one when there are only 2 players. The asking and telling contents of a hand should not be allowed in either case.

Good Luck,
Martin