POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Non-TDA Tournament and General Poker Rules Discussion => Topic started by: MikeB on April 15, 2010, 10:00:16 PM

Title: Straddle Questions
Post by: MikeB on April 15, 2010, 10:00:16 PM
Subject:  Cash game /Straddle
Nick C has the following question regarding straddles. He had some posting problems and asked the web admins to post the following for him:

Here is an interesting subject that was brought up the other night while a No-limit $2/$5 blind game was in progress. The UTG position straddled for the required total of $10. The next player raised to $15. One of the players immediately stopped the action and said that the raise must be to $20 (double the size of the straddle). To complicate the issue, the dealer got into a discussion with the floor person, because he disagreed with the call. After listening to the (well traveled and knowledgeable) player, the floor agreed with the player. The dealer said that we have always allowed the first raise in that position to be the amount of the size of the straddle, ($5). As a result, the card room manager reprimanded the dealer for saying anything at the table, which I agree with. He then issued a memo to all dealers that the double the straddle rule will apply for all games (tournaments excluded, of course). I have no problem with this rule for No-limit or even Pot-limit, but some dealers are real confused in the low limit fixed-bet or structured limit games. I have my own thoughts on the memo that was released, but I would like to hear what others have to say.

Thanks in advance for your response.

Nick C
Title: Re: Straddle Questions
Post by: Stuart Murray on April 16, 2010, 07:06:22 AM
Good one Nick!

I looked this up on RROP and it seems that the player was correct!  I would of thought the minimum raise from Straddle +1 would of been $15 total but RROP is very specific:

15. In non-tournament games, one optional live straddle is allowed. The player who posts the straddle has last action for the first round of betting and is allowed to raise. To straddle, a player must be on the immediate left of the big blind, and must post an amount twice the size of the big blind. A straddle bet sets a new minimum bring-in; it is not treated as a raise.

As it is not treated as a raise under RROP that means that the minimum raise must be double the size of the Straddle.  I agree with you that it is not problematic at NL or PL but at FL/L is does seem to create some erroneous problems.

Thanks for sharing, I have learned something today!

Title: Re: Straddle Questions
Post by: Nick C on April 16, 2010, 09:35:52 AM
  I think this might fall into the catagory that we talked about on earlier threads; separate No-limit and Pot limit from Limit. I was glad that Mike posted my question. I did find out that the TDA would prefer to avoid questions regarding cash games and I understand why. There is enough confusion out there with tournament rules, why add more. I have to tell you that the best explanation for the solution to the question of the straddle, was answered by Jan Fisher. I contacted her because I was unable to post my question. Her response was perfect (even though she really would rather not get into any "cash game" discussions) and I hope she does not take offense to me disclosing her thoughts on the subject. I felt that without my explanation, I would have been given credit for something that (I agree with) but, were not my words.

  I will now quote Jan Fisher: "The $10 straddle, IMO, is not a raise but an additional blind. as if there was a kill on it. That said, if you accept that, the raise has to be at least double that." I think that is a great example....thank you Jan! I really like the part of looking at it like it was a "kill." To me, that makes perfect sense for No-limit and Pot-limit. There is no raise limit to consider and it only changes the minimum bet.

  She also goes on to explain that a straddle doesn't change the limit of a limit game. If there is a $4 and $8 limit game, with blinds of $2/$4 and the next player straddled for $8 the next player could only raise it to $12 because it is a $4 street. A straddle has been used in cash games for a long time, but the difference between the limit and no-limit are considerable.

Nick C
Title: Re: Straddle Questions
Post by: Nick C on April 21, 2010, 05:17:49 AM
What is a "straddle"  A straddle is a double the big blind bet in a flop game.

              Requirements: a.) Straddler must be the first player clockwise to the big blind
                                   b.) Straddle must double the size of the big blind
                                   c.) Straddle before cards are dealt (blind)
      Why straddle? Players that straddle are usually looking to loosen-up the game. It is considered to be reckless and does create action.

On the first betting round (except at limit when the cap on raises has already been met), the straddler gets the final raise option, not the big blind.
        A blind raise from any out of straddle position, will not be live and may be considered a violation of any Out-Of-Turn rulings.

        A blind raise is NOT the same as a straddle. Example; Under the gun, looks at his hole cards then raises, or any player that raises (even in the dark) out of straddle position. This is NOT LIVE and NOT A STRADDLE.
                      The Dealer is required to announce a "straddle bet" before action begins, or as soon as it occurs.
                                             A STRADDLE IS NEVER USED IN TOURNAMENTS.

                                                                  NO-LIMIT STRADDLE

                                 Effects of: a.) Treated as a live blind
                                                b.) Alters the bring-in for that hand
                                                c.) Shifts the final raise option on the first round of betting away from the big blind.
                                                d.) Minimum raise option to next player must double the size of the straddle
                                     In No-Limit, when a player straddles, it may be compared to a "full kill." The required minimum wager
                                     to the next player on the first round of betting has doubled.


Title: Re: Straddle Questions
Post by: Nick C on April 21, 2010, 05:26:47 AM
                                                     LIMIT STRADDLE

                                  Effects of: a.) Treated as a live blind
                                                 b.) May be considered as the first raise of the raise limit for that game. *<see below>
                                                 c.) Shifts the final raise option on the first round of betting away from the big blind
                                                 d.) Can not change the limit of the game
                                                 e.) Raise option to the next player can not exceed the limit for that "street" or betting round
                               In Limit, when a player straddles, the next raise must be the size of the bet for that round.
                                    Example: The game is $3 and $6 with blinds of $1/$3. The straddle is to $6. The raise option to the next player
                                                  is a raise to $9 total because it is a $3 "street."
                              *Some jurisdictions will not consider a straddle into the raise limits allowed for a limit game.
                           This will alter the cap for the first round of betting. Example; In the $3 and $6 game above, with a bet
                           and three raise limit, the cap would be $12 on that round. With a straddle, the cap would be $15 because
                           a straddle is not recognized as a raise.

             I ran out of room on the last post, so I am continuing with this post. You will notice that I added some changes. I also added the fact that only one straddle is allowed per deal. If anyone has any feedback or changes that we should consider, please let me know.
Nick C