PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: BROOKS on September 27, 2016, 12:11:39 AM
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I've been reading a lot of posts on the forum for the past week or so and haven't come across this, so I apologize if it has already been addressed.
Blinds 1k/2k
UTG raises to 5k
Folds to the button who throws out a 5k chip.
SB and BB both fold
Dealer puts out flop, and button says "hey I was all in"
The dealer did not hear the all in, and UTG in seat 10 also says he didn't hear it. The rest of the table, all 8 of them, say they heard it.
Button is in seat 7 directly across from seat 10.
Both blinds say they only folded because the button was all in.
I feel this falls under Rule #2 players are responsible for making their intentions clear, and Rule #37 A) if simultaneously pushing out chips with verbal declaration , a clear and reasonable verbal declaration takes precedence, otherwise the chips play.
I would like to add that about 30 minutes prior to this, there was almost a premature turn, but the players made the dealer aware in time. To which I brought up the reasoning behind why the dealer pats the table before burning and turning.
I feel that since all 8 players apparently heard the verbal all in, all of them and the button himself had ample opportunity to speak up as the dealer pats the table, burns the card, puts the 3 flop cards down one at a time before flipping. Yet, no one did. I do not believe all 8 players heard. Possibly the blinds, but this button player was a regular and friends with everyone.
Curious as to what others would do in this situation
All in stands and flop is reshuffled
Or
Call of 5k stands and board stays
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Brooks,
I'm not sure I understand why you are questioning any wrong doing. We would always prefer the announcement of an all-in player, however, There is no rule that insists or regulates all-in declaration. The use of an all-in button is encouraged, but not mandatory.
In your example, the all-in player called the full amount of the UTG raise...both blinds folded...just burn and turn the flop, turn and river.
Ideally, the player or dealer would announce the all-in, but unless I'm missing something, two players remain, cards are tabled and the dealer proceeds until the showdown.
My answer: Call of 5K stands and board stays.
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Brooks,
I'm not sure I understand why you are questioning any wrong doing. We would always prefer the announcement of an all-in player, however, There is no rule that insists or regulates all-in declaration. The use of an all-in button is encouraged, but not mandatory.
In your example, the all-in player called the full amount of the UTG raise...both blinds folded...just burn and turn the flop, turn and river.
Ideally, the player or dealer would announce the all-in, but unless I'm missing something, two players remain, cards are tabled and the dealer proceeds until the showdown.
My answer: Call of 5K stands and board stays.
I believe he is saying that the button had chips behind. He announced "all-in" but only threw out the 5k to match the bet before him. Maybe he had a large stack of chips and didn't want to push them all forward if he didn't have it.
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GreggPath,
You could be right. I just didn't see it that way. Thanks. Still having a tough time sorting this one out. ???
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I would add that for me the witness of the dealer is stronger than 8 or 9 players! That's the #1 rule when you enter my poker room: "Here you are gonna be ruled by human dealers, floors and TDs that are gonna make decisions - What you think about their decisions do not matter - Accept this fact before sitting and you are welcome!"
I use to say to my players that my dealers are not only here to deal, they are MY EARS AND EYES (and my dealers love that)!
So it was the player's responsability to act clearly!
5K call - Flop stand
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I would add that for me the witness of the dealer is stronger than 8 or 9 players! That's the #1 rule when you enter my poker room: "Here you are gonna be ruled by human dealers, floors and TDs that are gonna make decisions - What you think about their decisions do not matter - Accept this fact before sitting and you are welcome!"
I use to say to my players that my dealers are not only here to deal, they are MY EARS AND EYES (and my dealers love that)!
So it was the player's responsability to act clearly!
5K call - Flop stand
The way the scenario is described I agree with Guillaume.
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I have dealt with this more than once and have ruled it a call since the dealer and some players did not hear the all in declaration. It comes under the "making actions clear" rule and if the chips had been shoved out there would be no problem. My guess is the blinds may have folded to the 5k bet anyway but if not, oh well. I have told soft spoken players to make their chips do the talking.
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Yes the button had chips behind. Apparently said all-in while tossing out the 5k chip.
I ruled that the flop stands and that they are responsible for making their actions clear. If you're going to put out an amount in chips and verbally say something else, you run the risk of it being ruled other than what you intended if you are not clear.
Thanks for the responses
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If I have 8 players (who should be unbiased as they have no vestment in the hand) saying that a player announced all-in, then I'm backing the flop out and announcing the player all-in. What the UTG claims he heard or didn't hear is hard to take at face value as he has an interest in the outcome of the hand. IMO, it's an early flop and I'm going to follow the appropriate procedure if UTG calls the all-in.
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The player that said he was all-in was lying...correct? If so, I don't see any reason to retract the "proper flop." Players and the dealer should have been aware of whether a player is all-in or not. Once it was realized that the player was not all-in...the action would continue with betting as usual. A penalty could be enforced after (if the player were not eliminated) but beyond that, why would we re-deal the flop?
The next time I read a confusing question, I'm going to keep digging until I understand what really happened. My first reply reflected my lack of understanding the question...and frankly, it's still a bit foggy!
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How am I supposed to know if the button was lying or not?
He alleged that when he threw out the 5k chip he also said all in. Dealer didn't hear, so as soon as the 2 blinds folded, dealer put out the flop thinking action was complete and button had called the 5k raise.
Soon as the flop comes out button yells out "hey I was all in"
The question was, did it matter if other players said they heard the verbal all in, especially the blinds that said it's the reason they folded.
I really don't see how this is a confusing question.
As I said before I believe this falls under Rule #2 players are responsible for making their actions clear, and Rule #37 A) if simultaneously pushing out chips with verbal declaration , a clear and reasonable verbal declaration takes precedence, otherwise the chips play.
I declared the 5k chip with an alleged unclear verbal statement to be just a call and resumed with the hand.
It could definitely be angle shooting, to wait til the flop comes out and say that you said you were all in.
I'm never going to know if he really said it or not, but he had the rest of the players trying to convince me that he did.
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Hey Brooks...I finally got it! :) :) Funny we came to the same conclusion even though it was for different reasons. I do believe that the Button should have made his all-in more clear. He also would have a responsibility to stop the dealer from putting the flop out.
Like you said, it would definitely open the door for angle shooting. No way that flop would ever be redealt in my game.
Sorry it took so long to understand your original question. ::)
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I suggest everyone reread Brian's reply, he's spot on.
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If I have 8 players (who should be unbiased as they have no vestment in the hand) ...
But those other players DO have an interest. Eliminate competition.
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Interesting case, and nice range of opinion on how it might be ruled. This is 100% a judgment call by the TD. More often than not I'd probably rule this a call, not because I'm convinced the guy didn't say "all-in", though if he did it was at best not clear and he nor anyone else spoke up when the dealer rapped the table...
...but more because I don't like just tossing out a 5k in this case. Give me: 1) an all-in button; or 2) an unmistakable declaration; 3) an all-in gesture, or best of all 4) pushing your stack forward.
His action is just marginally defined and not defended in this case so I'd tend to rule it a call and hope that instills more discipline next time.
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Ralph,
What you and Brian fail to recognize is the fact that the dealer obviously did not hear the all-in. The all important dealer... that too many of us fail to have any faith in. Many dealers are more competent than the floor that they answer to. Players need to let the dealer know what their intent is so the dealer can properly relay the message to the next player to act. Let the dealer control the action, the way he was taught in dealer school, and 99% of your problems are solved!
Dealer training is much easier to accomplish...easier than trying to teach players to abide by the rules. A competent dealer will direct the action to the proper player and tell him what the bet is, or he can prevent an improper action before it occurs. Just think how nice it could be if players acted in turn and followed the direction of a good dealer. :)
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What you and Brian fail to recognize is the fact that the dealer obviously did not hear the all-in.
I think we both recognize this fact, it's the reason we were called over ...
Nick and Mike,
Unfortunately, in a real brick and mortar setting, dealers miss stuff. It happens every day.
As a floor/TD, it's imperative that you gather as much information as possible from both the players and the dealers. Not just the dealers.
Mind you, I'm going to give my dealer the benefit of the doubt in situations where I get multiple versions. Had several of the players not involved in the hand state that they didn't hear the all-in, then I'm ruling it as a call.
That wasn't the case. In the original post, he states that 8 players agreed that the player stated all-in. To me, that's a consensus of players not involved in the hand.
For me, the decision is easy, he's all-in, back up the flop.
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What you and Brian fail to recognize is the fact that the dealer obviously did not hear the all-in.
I think we both recognize this fact, it's the reason we were called over ...
Nick and Mike,
Unfortunately, in a real brick and mortar setting, dealers miss stuff. It happens every day.
As a floor/TD, it's imperative that you gather as much information as possible from both the players and the dealers. Not just the dealers.
Mind you, I'm going to give my dealer the benefit of the doubt in situations where I get multiple versions. Had several of the players not involved in the hand state that they didn't hear the all-in, then I'm ruling it as a call.
That wasn't the case. In the original post, he states that 8 players agreed that the player stated all-in. To me, that's a consensus of players not involved in the hand.
For me, the decision is easy, he's all-in, back up the flop.
Den: 100% agree, this is a TD call at the time of the incident. My preference is to enforce betting discipline that's why I tend to favor a call, especially because neither the bettor or any of the observers spoke up to defend the action.
But 100% recognize the basis for your ruling it a raise.
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Ralph,
Reading Mike's reply only confirms what I've said about this rule, and so many others that leave the "door open" so to speak, for a ruling that might not be in the best interest of the game. :-\ I do understand why you feel the way you do. However, I believe that changing the "proper board" is a far worse choice than adjusting the call, to an unclear all-in wager.
Pretty good debate, I'd say. :)
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The button and the 8 others that heard the all-in declaration had an obligation to stop the dealer from bringing the flop before the UTG had a chance to call. This is a perfect example of why the TDA has strongly recommended the use of an all-in button. The proper use of the all-in button provides a tool to avoid these errors and confirmation that a player is all-in. I agree with those that see this as a call - I hate the idea undoing the flop. If the end result is an advantage to the UTG, the button has only himself to blame.
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Hey Bill,
It's always good when we agree. There is one point I'd like to mention about the all-in button. Five years ago, when I first heard of the all-in button, I thought it was a great idea. I asked for some feedback from TDA members that used the button and I received none. The biggest drawback is the fact that the all-in button is controlled by the dealer...so, in our current situation, the dealer was unaware of the all-in...so he would not have used the all-in button anyway. ???
Back to square one! Push all your chips forward or declare ALL IN !!!!!
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The biggest drawback is the fact that the all-in button is controlled by the dealer...so, in our current situation, the dealer was unaware of the all-in...so he would not have used the all-in button anyway. ???
Back to square one! Push all your chips forward or declare ALL IN !!!!!
True. However, the difference here is this: The all-in player would know that the dealer didn't hear his declaration because he didn't receive the all-in button. In that case, the all-in player wouldn't have a leg to stand on. It would clearly be a call.