PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: MrPick80 on June 15, 2016, 03:10:23 PM
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1° SB100 BB200 , raise from middle position 500.. player from SB take back his 100 chip and throw 1 chip of 1000. is call 500 or raise 1000?
2° SB100 BB200 , raise from middle position 500... player from SB take back only one chip of 50 and throw 1 chip of 1000. is call 500 or raise 1050?
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1- call
2- raise
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I agree with Dave.
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Agree with Dave and Nick
1- call (Rule 45 Oversized chip betting)
2- Raise (Rule 46 Multiple chip betting)
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Agree with Dave and Nick
1- call (Rule 45 Oversized chip betting)
2- Raise (Rule 46 Multiple chip betting)
Sorry for bringing up an older post but I'm just curious as to why you rule #2 as a raise. To me it also falls under Rule 45 oversized chip betting. He only threw 1 oversized chip into the pot. Removing one 50 chip and leaving one there, then throwing out an oversized chip should be a call. If he had picked up the 50 and threw it out with the oversized chip, then yes, definitely a raise.
I understand Rule 46 but I do not think it applies when there is already a previous bet out there and 1 oversized chip is put out when action returns to them. I understand Rule 46 to be when a person is betting multiple chips at one time.
Hopefully a few others will have something to add here and this can be cleared up for me
*I've been doing more searching on here and came across these older threads that seem to agree with me:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=554.0
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=548.0
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Brooks,
This is a great question...still.
The simple answer is to insist that players announce exactly what they are doing. However, that would be to simple, so it rarely happens. >:(
I looked back at the two links you referenced and wanted to change my own answers! ;D
Taking back your short bet or blind first, before tossing in the oversize chip, would make it much easier to enforce the oversize chip rule. The problem, in my opinion, is when the player leaves his short bet or blind in the betting area and then adds the oversize chip. I realize, I'm not answering your question, just clarifying that I do understand the situation that you speak of.
Unless the TDA comes up with a specific "firm" rule...this will always create controversy. TDA Rules #'s45, 46, and 47 all pertain to this situation but still allow the floor to call it either way. I'm sure it could be easily fixed...possibly not to everyone's liking...but it could be corrected.
Example: Players faced with a situation when more chips are required to either complete a bet or raise, or to raise a specific amount, are encouraged to announce their intentions before adding chips to an existing blind, or an incomplete existing wager. Failure to declare a raise, before adding an oversize chip, will disallow the raise and the oversize chip rule will apply.
Or:
Players faced with a situation when more chips are required to complete a bet or raise, or to raise a specific amount, MUST announce their intentions before adding chips to an existing blind, or an incomplete wager. Failure to remove an existing short bet or blind without clear declaration will automatically be recognized as a raise to the sum of all chips.
That's it...one or the other. :)
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I ruled #2 a raise because he left one chip out there before throwing in the big chip. If he had left them both out there, it's easy to rule that he forgot about it. But since he deliberately left one behind, it's multiple chips, so a raise to 1,050.
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Dave,
I agree with your reasoning about leaving one chip in, but why create am ambiguous situation by separating leaving one chip in, or leaving two chips in? Applying the multi-chip rule would apply for both situations. The only way I can see this ever being resolved is if the dealer can clear up the confusion before the next player acts.
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1° SB100 BB200 , raise from middle position 500.. player from SB take back his 100 chip and throw 1 chip of 1000. is call 500 or raise 1000?
2° SB100 BB200 , raise from middle position 500... player from SB take back only one chip of 50 and throw 1 chip of 1000. is call 500 or raise 1050?
Pick, thanks for the great case. These and all similar situations are the subject of TDA Rule 47 "Previous bet chips not pulled in".
At the 2013 and 2015 Summits the delegates debated each of 6+ possibilities where prior bet chips are stacked in front of a player and he's now facing additional action: such as pull back all prior chips, pull back part of the prior chips, pull back part then add a new chip(s) and throw the whole lot forward, etc. etc. . At both Summits there was significant disparity as to handle each situation; enough disparity that it didn't make sense at that time to adopt a detailed rule for every possibility. Instead the general language was adopted: "Because several possibilities exist, players should declare their bets before putting out new chips on top of prior-bet chips not yet pulled in." This everyone can agree to... if you have chips in front of you from a prior bet, you should declare your bet before you manipulate any of the prior bet chips. If you don't declare, then it's up to the floor to rule what your bet is, and you may get a ruling other than what you intended.
At the Summit discussions, some of the possible situations had a high level of agreement, but in others there were opinions all across the board. In the two cases you present, the vast majority would come down:
Case 1: a call. The player pulled everything back, he's facing a raise, he bets an overchip silently.
Case 2: the majority in 2015 would have ruled this a raise. Why? Because the player only pulled back one chip, then he put out a new larger chip along with it. WHY did he leave that one prior chip out there if he didn't want to "make a point with it"? So the majority but not all would rule that a raise to 1050 total, and did rule as such when a similar case was presented at the Summit.
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Thanks for the responses.
I would just like to ask about scenario #2 if he didn't pull back any chips, his 100 was out there and he threw out a 1k chip, without removing the 100.
Are we ruling this a raise to 1100 or just a call, as he threw out 1 oversize chip and did not pull back any prior chips?
I lean towards just a call
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Hello Brooks,
This is exactly what Mike was referring to: " if you have chips in front of you from a prior bet, you should declare your bet before you manipulate any of the prior bet chips. If you don't declare, then it's up to the floor to rule what your bet is, and you may get a ruling other than what you intended." I'd call it a raise, too...based on the multiple chips.
Teaching players to declare their intent, has proven to be just too difficult for our poker buddies to adopt. ::)
There is one point I'd like to mention that I know caused a little confusion when the rule was first introduced in 2013...TDA #44 Previous Bet Chips Not Pulled In...pulled in had some puzzled as to what it actually was referring to. Previous Bet Chips not taken back or Previous Bet Chips Exchanged or Previous Bet Chips Colored Up would be a few choices to consider.
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I am wondering if we fully answer the question? The original question in the title of the post includes "manipulation or not?" Just would like some clarification about what the question was for that part? Angle shooting? manipulating chips? not sure I understand that part of the post.
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Hi Max,
Interesting that you even picked up on the word "manipulation" in the original question. Mike B is the only person that even used "manipulate" in his answer. I'm not saying "manipulation" was the worst choice of words, however, according to The American Heritage Dictionary...ma-nip-u-late...1) to operate or control by skilled use of the hands. 2) to influence or manage shrewdly or deviously....3) to tamper with or falsify for personal gain.
So...based on the true meaning of the word, I'd say that manipulation of previously bet chips (with skilled use of the hands) should never be allowed. Such as gathering chips together and causing any uncertainty. Our answers (I believe) are directed to the common, unintentional action of completing a bet or raise, without intent to confuse. Therefore, as everyone has stated, without clarification from the bettor, or even the dealer, we will forever have to deal with this annoying situation.
Take a minute to think of the action we all use whenever we are in the SB position and increase to the BB amount. Depending on the limit of the game, it may be an action that occurs with almost every hand dealt.
i.e. Limit Poker 5 & 10 Blinds, 2 & 5. When action returns to the SB we exchange the two chips and replace them with a single 5 count chip, or we add three more 1's. The response from the SB is usually, "call" at which point he can either put in the 5 and retract the two 1's...or he can retract the two 1's first (preferred) and then toss in the 5. Of course they can also fold or raise. I think everyone will agree, if the short amount were removed first, we wouldn't have this problem.
The solution seems so simple; say what you mean, or retract the short amount before "manipulating" your intended amount! ;D
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The solution seems so simple; say what you mean, or retract the short amount before "manipulating" your intended amount! ;D
YES!!!
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I am wondering if we fully answer the question? The original question in the title of the post includes "manipulation or not?" Just would like some clarification about what the question was for that part? Angle shooting? manipulating chips? not sure I understand that part of the post.
As far as "manipulation" of prior-bet chip(s), in 2015 the TDA adopted Rule 47-B: If facing action, clearly pulling back prior bet chip(s) binds a player to call or raise.
In the original case this would mean that IF the SB picked up one or both of the 50's, pulled them back as if he was going to call or raise, then decides he wants to toss the 100 forward and fold, that's not a permissible action. By manipulating the prior-bet chips the player binds himself to at least calling the full bet to him.
That's the only situation where "manipulation" per se would become a factor in this case. And the OP doesn't indicate that such action occurred here.
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Mike,
I just want to be clear on what you wrote: If a player touches his SB, or touches any of his short wagered amount...he MUST call.
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Thanks for the responses.
I would just like to ask about scenario #2 if he didn't pull back any chips, his 100 was out there and he threw out a 1k chip, without removing the 100.
Are we ruling this a raise to 1100 or just a call, as he threw out 1 oversize chip and did not pull back any prior chips?
I lean towards just a call
Hey Brooks sorry for late response. Yes generally that would be a call for the reason you mention he puts out a silent overchip when facing a raise. However how would you rule if in a continuous motion he puts out an overchip and tosses or pushes all 3 chips significantly further towards the pot? Thats yet another variation subject to interpretation hence the general language you should declare action first before putiing new chip(s) out on top of prior bet chips.
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Brooks,
Does this rule not apply to your question #2 Rule 46: Multiple Chip Betting.
“When facing a bet, unless raise is declared first, a multiple-chip bet is a call if every chip is
needed to make the call; i.e. removal of just one of the smallest chips leaves less than the call
amount… If the single removal of just one of the smallest chips leaves the call amount or
more, the bet is governed by the 50% standard in Rule 43.
If so, wouldn't it be a raise? Removal of one small chip would easily qualify as a raise, or am I missing something again?
Mike, Not sure if you saw my last post, but a yes or no answer would help clear this up for me. Thanks.
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Thanks guys for the clarification, for some reason i was thinking of a more nefarious definition :o for manipulate, but I now see it for what it is, which is move the chips around. :D
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Nick - I would say no. I do not believe that throwing out 1 oversize chip, adding it to existing chip(s) falls under multiple chip betting.
I feel that the multiple chip rule is for when a player tosses out multiple chips together. Hence why there are 2 separate rules. One for the an oversize chip, and one for multiple chips.
Just my take on it though.
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Brooks,
I hope you don't think I'm challenging you on this ruling...I am not. I am however very confused to think that there are so many TDA rules that can justify any call the floor wants to make.
Blinds 100 & 200 UTG raises to 500...the small blind removes one of his 50 count chips (leaving one in the bet area) and tosses a 1K chip into the bet. Why would any player, not wishing to raise, remove only one chip? Would you not look at this as multiple chips? If so, removal of the smallest chip would be more than sufficient to constitute a raise. Isn't that what the current rule addresses? Forgive me if my comprehension is clouded.
Announcing "call" or removing both 50 count chips (100 SB) before silently tossing a single 1K would be the two solid choices to guarantee a call. Other than that, I believe the current rule is specific and clearly makes the above action...a raise. How can so many of these rules create different results? ???
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Any touching or moving at least a single chip within the betting area is a new action.
Look at this: THNL, blinds 100 - 200
SB-100
BB-200
MP- 700 (total raise)
Action back to SB:
A. SB took back 100 (one chip) & put 2 x 500
B. SB leave 100 (one chip) & put over 2 x 500
C. SB leave 100 (one chip) & put over 1 x 1.000
D. SB took back 100 (one chip) & put 1 x 1.000
F. SB leave 2 x 50 & put over 2 x 500
My answer is:
A. CALL
B. RAISE (50% RULES)
C. CALL
D. CALL
F. RAISE (50% RULES)
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pastor,
In your example (C & D)... it makes no difference to you whether the SB leaves his 100 in or removes it before tossing in a single 1 x 1.000 chip. If this is correct, this is where we will disagree.
There are casinos that I know of that will not allow a raise unless 100% of the prior call amount is matched. They will not use the 50% rule. This, however should not pertain to the oversize chip rule.
In your example: I see no difference between putting 2 x 500 or 1 x 1.000...as long as you leave your SB in the bet area.
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Any touching or moving at least a single chip within the betting area is a new action.
Look at this: THNL, blinds 100 - 200
SB-100
BB-200
MP- 700 (total raise)
Action back to SB:
A. SB took back 100 (one chip) & put 2 x 500
B. SB leave 100 (one chip) & put over 2 x 500
C. SB leave 100 (one chip) & put over 1 x 1.000
D. SB took back 100 (one chip) & put 1 x 1.000
F. SB leave 2 x 50 & put over 2 x 500
My answer is:
A. CALL
B. RAISE (50% RULES)
C. CALL
D. CALL
F. RAISE (50% RULES)
Pastor: Thanks alot for the great cases. This is an example of why having a blanket rule for all this is challenging. Personally I would rule as follows:
A: Call
B: Call. Why? because it's really 600 to the SB and he puts out two 500's. If you take one of those away it leaves less than the amount to call. If you rule it a raise I think you have to be including the 100 sb as part of a multi-chip bet. I prefer to only look at the two 500's as a multi-chip bet in this case, because the prior bet chip(s) was not disturbed
C: Call. But I think in your rulings, since you ruled B a raise you have to rule C a raise too... reason is I assume you are considering the 100 sb as part of a multi-chip bet in B, yes? Then you would have to consider the 1000 and 100 in C as a multi-chip bet. Technically I don't think we consider any prior bet as part of a multi-chip bet UNLESS only part of the prior bet is removed... let's say the guy made his 100 sb with two 50's and he just pulls one 50 back and tosses out a 1000, or tosses out two 500's. Then in that case many would consider the remaining 50 to be part of a new multi-chip bet. Confusing? Yes. That's why the one thing everyone can agree on is the current language in Rule 47-A: "Because several possibilities exist, players should declare their bets before putting out new chips on top of prior-bet chips not yet pulled in".
D: Call
F: Call as long as he doesn't disturb one of the 50's. If he pulls back one of the 50's I'd rule it a raise. This case of "partial pullback" of prior chips was discussed at length at the 2015 Summit, and from memory the majority (but not all) attendees ruled those situations a raise.
Thanks again for the great input.
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Mike,
I just want to be clear on what you wrote: If a player touches his SB, or touches any of his short wagered amount...he MUST call.
Anarchy now! These uniform globalists have lost their collective minds.
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OK guys,
Let's start to investigate where is the problem of this ''anarchy'' or different interpretation?
SB ask the dealer ''HOW MUCH'' and dealer's answer is?
1. 600 to call.
2. 700 (most EU casinos)
If a dealer gave to SB only one option (600 to call), then all my examples are CALL. If a dealer give to SB the info. of total raise, then he/she leave them all options and my answer's are as I said. If a dealer didn't say nothing, is the same.
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Pastor,
If I were dealing and you were the SB with 100...I'd tell you it is 600 more to call. I know this is not the way it is done outside of the United States, but it's the best way to address the proper amount necessary to compete. Current rules, in my opinion, will cause confusion. For this reason, I do not agree with TDA #43 B Without other clarifying information, declaring raise and an amount is the total bet. Ex: A opens for 2000, B declares “Raise, eight thousand.” The total bet is 8000.
What makes more sense? YOU: "How much is it dealer?" DEALER: "Seven hundred." YOU: "Seven hundred more?" DEALER: "No, six hundred more!" YOU: "Okay, I call." Or...DEALER: "Six hundred more to call."
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Nik C.
We always count and announce total bet or raise (PLAYER: How much is it or there? DEALER: 700).
What is the difference between NL and PL?
SB: How much is a Pot?
DEALER: 2.300 or 2.200 more?
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pastor,
Not sure I know where you're going with this. The difference, in relation to the size of the pot, is that the dealer does not announce pot size in NL & Limit...only in Pot Limit.
In your next question: SB: How much is pot? I don't know how to answer that. I will tell you this: if I am dealing, and you are in with one hundred in the SB position, and the total wager to you is 2400, I will announce "raise" followed by the required amount for you to call the bet. "Pastor, the pot is raised, it's 2300 to call."
When dealing pot limit...the dealer is required to know the size of the pot. I don't believe he is responsible for telling you how to determine what your max bet should be.
That does raise a good question. In Pot-Limit does the dealer have to tell the bettor how much his pot bet must be? Or is the dealer only responsible to tell the bettor the size of the actual pot?