PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: Guillaume Gleize on May 06, 2016, 04:28:39 AM
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Hello gentlemen!
Here is a very simple case but that split the french casinos & rooms:
When dealing the cards, 90% of the players have their hands on the table (near the chips for example). If a card is dealt the GOOD WAY toward the STATIC hands of a player, hit them and turn face up: Is it a dead card or not?
Here in France 70% houses say: it's dead (to please their customers) and 30% houses applies the "Hands off" rule (so the player must keep the returned card) but those are much less popular!
What about the TDA but not only: What is REALLY APPLIED at the tables of Australia, USA, England when dealing cards to big week-end customers please?
TY - GG
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Until the card settles to a stop, it's in the process of dealing. No matter what causes it to flip, it is replaced.
Once it settles to a stop, it is dealt (past tense). No matter what then causes it to flip, it remains in play.
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I had to read Dave's post twice, but I agree with him (the definition of "settle to a stop").
- If it is flipped during the deal it is replaced.
- If the player flips it by mistake once it settled it stays (and could be covered by rule 62-3 for any penalty depending on the intent).
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The TDA rule 34: Misdeals speaks of cards that are exposed by dealer error. IMO, it is dealer error anytime that the card hits a player's hand and is exposed. I see nothing in the TDA rules that says a player must keep their "hands off." Of course, House Rules can overrule.
While Dave's statements have merit, there are no TDA rules that distinguish cards in motion or at rest. (What if a card is dealt that settles to a stop precariously on top of a player's hand?)
Max mentions TDA rule 62: No Disclosure, part 3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled. This rule has nothing to do with cards that are exposed intentionally or accidentally. It says that players may not disclose hands that are not tabled. The subtle difference between 62-1 and 62-3 might be similar to: "I folded KQh." and "I know he has a straight."
Regards,
B~
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In South Florida we have 10 card rooms.
Two of them have house rules that state if a player's hand is responsible for flipping the card, then the player keeps the card.
The remaining 8 rooms replace the card regardless. (We're in the group)
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I have to agree with Uniden on this one. We can not have players catching a glimpse of their card, not liking it and flipping it so it can be replaced. If the card catches air, or is flipped through dealer error, the card must be replaced, even if the owner of the card wants to keep it!
The method for replacing the exposed card will have the dealer continue dealing "proper card" to each of the remaining players as if no error occurred. The card will then be replaced by the next card, usually the card due to be the burn...unless the exposed card is the river card in a stud game.
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We can not have players catching a glimpse of their card, not liking it and flipping it so it can be replaced. If the card catches air, or is flipped through dealer error, the card must be replaced, even if the owner of the card wants to keep it!
I seriously doubt that anyone can catch a glimpse of a card, instantly make a keep/kill decision, then have the card hit thier hand, and manage to flip it, while making it seem like it flipped naturally as a result of a badly tossed card.
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Looking back at Uniden's reply, I guess the more simple answer is: if a card is flipped or exposed through dealer error, the card is replaced (i. e.catches some air and turns over)...if the card is flipped by the player, or flipped because it hit the players hand, it will remain in play.
This does not correspond with the way Uniden's room handles the situation but, it seems the more practical solution, in my opinion. Telling a player that his Ace must be replaced because it hit his hand and was exposed might be a difficult rule to enforce. In fact, I'm starting to rethink replacing any "proper card" that is exposed.
Always an interesting topic. It reminds me of the card off the table that "must" be replaced, even when it is never really exposed, and lands face down on the floor.
Don't know if I'm offering any solid answers to Guillaume's original question but I guess the best solution is to be sure your house rules clearly state the way you are going to handle this situation.
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Again, there are no TDA rules that makes the distinctions which are being discussed here. So, your house rules apply. As shown above, it seems that only a small % of houses hold the player responsible and keep the exposed card in play. Even an Ace is diminished in value if everyone knows your are holding it!
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Nick -
Regarding cards that fly off the table: you can never be sure if it landed face up or down.
Suppose it was face up, an ace, and the player claims it was face down.
Or it was face down, and the player peeks while retrieving it, sees its a deuce, and said it was face up.
The only thing to do is replace ANY card tossed off the table - and expose it to all players.
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Dave-
I'm not trying to change the rule, merely cover different scenarios that call for replacing exposed cards. I will disagree about a card off the table, when you say you can never be sure if it landed face up or face down.
I honestly, don't remember the last time a card was pitched off the table but it is good to know how to handle such an occurrence.
I just hate to show cards to the table when you know it was never seen by anyone.
Then there's the situation when we come across a "boxed card," the card is replaced but the damage is done. A "non-existing card" that is clearly seen by all and usually has a serious impact on the hand in progress.
Solution for dealers: Stop screwing-up and keep the cards on the table! ;D
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Nick,
With regards to a card off the table being replaced whether it is face up or not:
We don't know that the card didn't flip several times on the way to the floor, and a player got to catch a glimpse of the card. So for this reason, we just replace it regardless of how it lands. We could never know with any certainty that no one actually saw it.
With regards to a card being flipped up because it hits a player's hand:
One of the reasons we do it the way we do at our room, is because we don't care how the card got flipped. If we were to try and figure out who's fault it was, then we end up with the player who will say the Ace hit his hand trying to keep it and the dealer saying it didn't hit the player's hand, etc. We just replace it regardless, and move on.
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I certainly don't expect your house rule to change, just pointing out how showing a card that was probably not seen by anyone seriously affects the action on any hand. Reminds me of the player that insists he saw his neighbors card because it was flashed. He insists it was the King of diamonds and when the floor decides it should be exposed it is discovered that it was the Jack of hearts!
Accidently flipping a card on the initial deal is not as critical as flipping a river card, in stud for example. Similarly, coming across a "boxed card" on the initial deal, is not quite as bad as a boxed card on the turn in a flop game.
I think either rule is acceptable, as long as there is consistency, and the rules are posted.
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Solution for dealers: Stop screwing-up and keep the cards on the table! ;D
Sure. And cards flying off the table is actually very rare. At least it is in a card room with professional dealers. But it happens all the time in amateur games such as charity events / deal-your-own events. Certainly the rules can be (and have been) designed to apply to all games.
I certainly don't expect your house rule to change, just pointing out how showing a card that was probably not seen by anyone seriously affects the action on any hand.
You're absolutely right. But you're also assuming that the player is being honest when he said it landed face down.
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TY for your answers!
To be said: The few rooms here ruling the "hands-off" has no problem either! Believe me: The guys don't let any hand on the table during the dealing because they don't want to be punished! It works! And no guys trying to "touch the card" or something as someone said: Not at all! This said: their only problem is that the customers visiting them and coming from "cooler" dealing rule rooms don't appreciate it and risk to leave them!
But I'll follow the majority and apply the "soft" rule. I'm a unionist that's why I respect the TDA meaning: "I don't allways use the rules I prefer, I use the rules the MAJORITY prefers!"
GG
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It might be worthwhile to consider an addition to the Recommended Procedures. In 2015 we have:
RP-3. Personal Belongings
The table surface is vital for chipstack management, dealing, and betting. The table and spaces around it (legroom & walkways) should not be cluttered by non-essential personal items. Each cardroom should clearly display its policy on items that may or may not be allowed in the tournament area.
Perhaps some wording on the benefits of keeping "hands-off" during the deal could be helpful.
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Hello Bill,
I like where you're going with this. Personal belongings could include a players clothing, or hands-off, or any personal affect that might obstruct the direction, or flight of down cards pitched by the dealer. Therefore, any down card exposed during a deal will be replaced. There is no option for the owner of the hand to keep that card...it must be replaced.
Good idea, Bill...why not? That's the way rules should be... Firm!
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Good idea, Bill...why not? That's the way rules should be... Firm!
Hey Nick,
I'm glad you support the basics of this idea. However, note that my suggestion is to modify a Recommended Procedure, not an official rule. As stated in 2015, the RP are policy suggests and not one universal rule. The above opinions lead me to believe that obtaining a TDA majority vote on such a rule change is unlikely.
Regards,
B~
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Nick replied:
Hello Bill,
I was thinking to simply add the "hands-off" to the existing RP-3. You are definitely correct about getting the TDA to come up with a majority vote to change this rule.
I guess we have to decide (individually) which rule best addresses the desire of the card room manager, or whoever makes the rules for your room.
Either the card is always replaced, or there are certain conditions that could deem replacement unacceptable. Whatever the decision, be sure your house rules are clearly stated and understood by all...players and dealers alike.
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Somehow his post was corrupted
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While the "hands off" rule sounds good, I can't see it working.
Some players have their paws all over the place, to the point of making it hard to see if they even have cards. How are you gonna get that type of player to keep hands off during the deal? You might as well ask craps players to keep their hands out of the tub while the shooter has the dice. It's a loosing battle.
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Dave,
We're talking about the fraction of a second it takes to keep your hands away from a card that is pitched to you. We are not talking about the complete duration of the deal. When the card is pitched to you and settles face down, then you can take a peek. If you flip it, or drop it and it becomes exposed, it's yours. We know how to handle an exposed card caused by dealer error.
I'd rather we consider listing two rulings, one for flop games and another for stud.