PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: BillM16 on September 21, 2015, 08:20:53 PM
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Rules:
- 2: Player Responsibilities
- 13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand
- 60: Accidentally Killed / Fouled Hands
All of these rules say that a player must protect their hands at all times. However, nowhere does the TDA Rules describe what constitutes adequate protection. Some players think a card protector is adequate protection. Some think that using the All-In button is a suitable card protector. Some think that simply being All-In is protection. Is it necessary for a player to keep physical control of their cards so that it is impossible for a dealer to muck them in error or for another player who is discarding cards to foul the live hand? Should this be an illustrated item in the addendum?
Regards,
B~
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Bill,
Players should always have one hand on their live hand, in my opinion. There are card ornaments that offer protection, too. I'm not familiar with the all-in buttons...in fact, I thought that they were in the dealers possession and not the players? Stud hands are considered protected by the "up-cards" but flop games are what we are always talking about. All I know is, when I'm in a hand...my cards are secure from players and dealers. I also don't surrender my hand until I see a better hand or am awarded the pot! ;D
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Nick has it spot on!!
When I am in a hand, my cards are protected by my hand(s). I don't consider anything else adequate protection. If a player has a spinner or ornament or something similar, ie, card protector, on top of the hole cards and another players cards get fully mixed, even by total accident, how do you tell which cards were which? Players have to take some responsibility in this game and protecting their hole cards is one of the things the player is responsible for.
Chet
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I agree, I always remind players to at a minimum cap their cards to protect their hand, especially the two players on each side of the dealer.
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I have a problem with players that use their hand to protect the cards. Some people do it in a manner that makes it hard to see they even have cards. As a result the dealer can skip them by mistake. Years ago, I lost a huge pot this way. The river gave me the nuts, but had to be shuffled in when a skipped player spoke up too late. 😠
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Dave,
That's a tough one but a good dealer knows how many players are in a hand, and should remind players to protect their hands without concealing them. Dealer participation is whats missing in most of these troubling situations. Poor dealers make some of us lose faith in their ability to control the game.
Hey Chet...what do you know...we agreed on another one! ;D Always good to hear from you, especially when we agree.
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So, players should prevent their cards from being accidentally folded or mucked while keeping their cards visible. A personal card protector helps but is not considered adequate protection.
Do you think the rules should make this clear?
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As stated on the first post,, Ultimately it is up to the player to protect their hand (rule 2), It is clear and i think most players know to protect their hand, not sure we need to add more in the rules.
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Rules:
- 2: Player Responsibilities
- 13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand
- 60: Accidentally Killed / Fouled Hands
All of these rules say that a player must protect their hands at all times. However, nowhere does the TDA Rules describe what constitutes adequate protection.
Interesting question. The TDA does not have an "official" method of card protection. The rule simply states that a) players must protect their hand and b) that the player has no redress if the hand is killed or irretrievably fouled. Following the 2009 Summit, the Association grappled with ways that rule might be modified to "recognize" a protected vs. unprotected hand but no Association-wide language could be found.
Is it necessary for a player to keep physical control of their cards so that it is impossible for a dealer to muck them in error or for another player who is discarding cards to foul the live hand?
Yes. In the words of some, a hand that was killed by mistake was by definition not protected.
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Dave: By in my hand(s), I mean that I hold the cards by the two long edges so that at least 1/3 - 1/2 of the length of the card is clearly visible. If someone asks, I will move my hand forward, but I DO NOT release my cards until either I am folding or the pot has been pushed to me.
I understand what you mean in your example and there are plenty of players who cover their hole cards so that you cannot tell if that player has cards or not without asking. A good dealer will provide some instruction to said player so they know better from that point on.
Chet
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If the dealer mucks your hand, it wasn't protected. If someone else mucks their cards into yours and we can't tell whose is whose, you didn't protect your hands. I don't think this needs to be defined any more. If I say "chip on top" is protection and they get mucked anyway, that just sets us up for failure.
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If the dealer mucks your hand, it wasn't protected. If someone else mucks their cards into yours and we can't tell whose is whose, you didn't protect your hands. I don't think this needs to be defined any more. If I say "chip on top" is protection and they get mucked anyway, that just sets US up for failure.
Thanks Brian. I wholeheartedly agree - to a point. Players are taught by other players, dealers, TV, and to some degree, the TDA Rules. The incorrect message they hear time and again is "Protect your hand with a chip on top." This is wrong. Now, here is where we disagree - I think this DOES need to be better defined. Otherwise, when the chip protected cards get mucked anyway it's the PLAYER that feels like WE set THEM up for failure.
How can we inform the players, dealers, TV and the TDs around the world that the correct way is to protect your cards with your hand in a way that the cards are kept visible? Is that not a very simple phrase that could be included in the rules?
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If the dealer mucks your hand, it wasn't protected. If someone else mucks their cards into yours and we can't tell whose is whose, you didn't protect your hands. I don't think this needs to be defined any more. If I say "chip on top" is protection and they get mucked anyway, that just sets US up for failure.
I agree with Brian 100%. Once you define what exactly constitutes "protecting", we leave ourselves opened up. Protecting should simply mean that your hand wasn't able to be taken, mucked, or otherwise fouled by mistake.
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I agree with Brian 100%. Once you define what exactly constitutes "protecting", we leave ourselves opened up. Protecting should simply mean that your hand wasn't able to be taken, mucked, or otherwise fouled by mistake.
Then we should say: Protecting your hand means that your hand wasn't able to be taken, mucked, or otherwise fouled by mistake.
I don't see how a lack of definition is protecting the dealers or the TD. In fact, I see just the opposite. Players are saying that the hand was protected - by their definition.
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Here's the language of Rule 60 that deals with a hand mucked or fouled:
If the dealer kills a hand by mistake or if in TDs judgement a hand is fouled and cannot be identified to 100% certainty, the player has no redress and is not entitled to a refund of called bets.
That language doesn't require a definition of "protected hand"... it's an irrelevant concept as it relates to the language of the rule. It speaks only to a hand that has been killed or fouled... the player will have no redress.
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Half-sarcasm incoming:
This just made me think, as a player, what might be the most efficient and safest device for card protection, and I think the answer is: a flat chip clip. This would keep both cards clipped together so there would be no question as to which two cards they were. They are the two cards that are clipped together in the middle of the muck!
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A chip clip could damage the cards, causing the player to be accused of card marking.