PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: Guillaume Gleize on May 11, 2015, 04:44:16 PM
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Hello,
At the river on a board 34567 rainbow
A bet
B call
A shows KK
B muck and the (tired) dealer mix his hand with the muck
Another player notice and says that any hand split or wins against the KK
"FLOOR"
...
What rule is the stronger?
- The rule for not killing a "winning" hand?
- The rule for the winning "last hand alive"?
- The rule for the "collusion"?
???
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Hello Guillaume,
In a tournament setting there's no question of what I would do. Split the pot.
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Easy call for the floorperson:
17: Playing the Board at Showdown
When playing the board a player must table all hole cards in order to get part of the pot.
Mucked hand = did not show his cards, therefore cannot win part of the pot. Poker is a game of continous observation and attention.
All the best,
DC
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^^^^^^^^ Winner ^^^^^^^^^
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Shouldn't argue with DC on this one. :-[ I still don't like the fact that the other player showed KK...and I don't like giving any chips to any player that shouldn't get them. How does this not fall under possible collusion? Every day I find another rule that I question. :-\
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Shouldn't argue with DC on this one. :-[ I still don't like the fact that the other player showed KK...and I don't like giving any chips to any player that shouldn't get them.
Why do you believe that the player who tabled his hand does not deserve to receive chips?
How does this not fall under possible collusion? Every day I find another rule that I question. :-\
It is not collusion because you already said it yourself.... it's only "possible". We make decisions based on facts. Not possibilities. The fact is one player tabled their hand and the other player voluntarily mucked their hand.
In addition to the above rule DC pointed out, this falls under the One Player to a Hand rule: Telling another player to turn their hand faceup, i.e. table their hand, at the
showdown. It is the players own responsibility to table their hand to be read by
the dealer.
Even you have argued this point. It's the players responsibility to protect their hand and to be able to read the board.
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Thomas:
You can look back five years and you will see that I've been in disagreement with any (tournament) player being deprived of chips he should have received when in for all bets. If you read my answer you'll understand that the player is receiving more chips than he should. That's what I meant when I said the pot should be split.
This has been a hot topic since the last Summit. That is; suggesting that all tournament hands be tabled at showdown. If that were the case, so many of the showdown issues that we discuss on a regular bases would disappear. The player would not have been allowed to muck, and TDA #17 could be eliminated.
You asked about collusion...do you think I wouldn't suspect collusion in this scenario: You ditched your cards with the nut hand on board and your friend winds up with 50% more chips than he would have...Oh, wait a minute...of course that would be impossible if one of the players was all-in?!? I don't get it, sorry...I just don't get it.
Of course it's the players responsibility to protect their own hand, and it's the TD's responsibility to assure that the rightful winner gets the pot!
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Easy call for the floorperson:
17: Playing the Board at Showdown
When playing the board a player must table all hole cards in order to get part of the pot.
Mucked hand = did not show his cards, therefore cannot win part of the pot. Poker is a game of continous observation and attention.
All the best,
DC
I agree, player B failed to qualify for his share of the pot.
1: Floor Decisions
Floorpeople must consider the best interest of the game and fairness as top priorities in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floorperson's decision is final.
I think it is unfair to player A to give player B half of the pot. I don't think it would be in the best interest of the game to say TDA Rule 17 should be overruled, unless there is solid proof of collusion, in which case, neither player would be awarded any part of the pot and would be disqualified from the tournament.
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Bill:
Would you agree if either player were all-in, the pot would have to be split?
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Bill:
Would you agree if either player were all-in, the pot would have to be split?
Hey Nick, so I guess you are asking me if rule 15 trumps rule 17 or vice versa?
15: Face Up for All-Ins
All cards will be tabled without delay once a player is all-in and all betting action by all other
players in the hand is complete. See Illustration Addendum.
In my opinion, it would be easy enough for rule 15 to say "unless the hand was mucked" or rule 17 to say "unless there is an all-in." Unfortunately, that is not the case. I guess that I don't hold to the idea that a poker player should be protected from their own mistakes and lack of attention at the table. If you muck your hand you are not entitled to any part of the pot resonates better with me. I think there is value to rule 15 and occasionally saving an unaware player is a reasonable price to pay ... but not if they mucked.
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Thomas:
You can look back five years and you will see that I've been in disagreement with any (tournament) player being deprived of chips he should have received when in for all bets. If you read my answer you'll understand that the player is receiving more chips than he should. That's what I meant when I said the pot should be split.
Fair enough. It just sounded like you didn't want the player to receive any chips, whether it be due to a split pot or due to your suspicion of collusion, in which case as Bill said, both players would be disqualified and forfeit all chips.
This has been a hot topic since the last Summit. That is; suggesting that all tournament hands be tabled at showdown. If that were the case, so many of the showdown issues that we discuss on a regular bases would disappear. The player would not have been allowed to muck, and TDA #17 could be eliminated.
True, except for that would take away one of the essential requirements of being a card player, which is, reading the board.
You asked about collusion...do you think I wouldn't suspect collusion in this scenario: You ditched your cards with the nut hand on board and your friend winds up with 50% more chips than he would have...Oh, wait a minute...of course that would be impossible if one of the players was all-in?!? I don't get it, sorry...I just don't get it.
Yes, but the player wouldn't be eliminated. We don't protect people from making errors in judgement (ie as is being able to read the board) and thus losing chips. We only protect players from being eliminated unduly. How would the 2009 WSOP have turned out if Ivey is protected from mucking a flush (http://www.pokernews.com/news/2009/10/the-wsop-main-event-on-espn-the-one-where-ivey-mucks-a-winne-7460.htm)?? Under your recommendation of eliminating rule #17, Ivey would have been awarded the pot, protecting himself from misreading his hand simply because he was in for all bets at showdown.
Of course it's the players responsibility to protect their own hand, and it's the TD's responsibility to assure that the rightful winner gets the pot!
I understand that your position is predicated on the basis that WE as a group always want the best hand to prevail. But we shouldn't protect players from themselves and eliminate one of the fundamental skills of the game, except to stave off elimination.
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Thanks Bill...I guess I'm trying to protect the rightful winner from making a mistake, yes...that's true, and I realize there are consequences for overlooking, or missing something in your own hand. However, the most important factors that I'm addressing are, First: The players involved are in for all bets...so I'm not talking about a player that folds facing a bet. Second: There is no further action pending. I'm also not speaking of a cash game. I'd be happy to know that someone holding a better hand than mine, decided to muck! :D I'll take it. However, I strongly believe that tournament poker involves each and every player that paid the price for admission. Each player may be affected by a windfall of chips in the hands of an undeserving player. It has happened on numerous occasions already in major events.
I know I sound like a broken record much of the time, or most of the time perhaps, but I feel that strongly about it. I've never been in favor of forcing a player to put more chips into the pot than he intended, and I'm not in favor of giving away chips to a player that we know with certainty, is entitled to some of the chips we just passed to another player.
One other mention. Maybe you can explain to me how: the protection for all players that I'm now referring to, is only "guaranteed" if there happens to be any player in the hand all-in!??!? ::)
Please think this one through because it's very important.
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Long time no post.
I agree with Nick here. The integrity of the Tournament is on the line. What happens now that A has X number more chips and then he doubles through player C or D two hands later? We need to protect ALL the players in the tournament not just those who are involved in the current pot. The rule might state otherwise but it should be a split.
Welcome back Spence!
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Long time no post.
Welcome back Spence!
Well Happy Days! Welcome back!
Now if only DCJ001 and Jasper would chime in.
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DCJ001...Is he? or she? still around? >:(
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The rule might state otherwise but it should be a split.
There's a specific rule for this that says he HAS to show his hand to get part of the pot, and if we don't follow that rule there's a legitimate claim to the Gaming Commision. My opinion is: enforce the rule as written or lobby for it's change.
My personal opinion: I agree with the rules as written on this matter. A player who has laid no claim for a pot should not have his hand held through the rules of the game. What about all the times a player has shown one card and mucked the other? He doesn't get the pot either because he didn't follow the rule that says he needed to show both.
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Hello guys,
I'm sorry but I can't agree with the argument that the players should be protected from making a mistake.
The reason people are better or worse at competitions is because better players have skills that make their results superior. In athletic sports it might be strength or speed, but in mental or mind games like poker it is the ability to make calculations, recognize patterns and, amongst many more, be alert and observant.
When we table all hands during an all-in situation it is because that is hen the risk of a collusion is the greatest and because the player's tournament life is at stake. Therefore, we - as TDs - understand that we should table all hands so that we don't kick out or reward a player by mistake.
On all other situations, the risk of collusion will always exist, and people that want to collude will exploit a wide array of scenarios - the ability to muck at showdown being only one of them. So, I do believe that we still need to protect the all-in showdown and should not care about "preventing" a player from misinterpreting the board. IMO, the threat of elimination or doubling up a player by mistake is far worst than someone misreading the board.
Food for thought: https://youtu.be/UKBKoSyTEAE - Should they have prevented Ivey from mucking the winning hand? Should WSOP have given the chips to Ivey? Is really that the purpose of a TD? Is that being fair?
I don't think so.
All the best,
DC
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On all other situations, the risk of collusion will always exist, and people that want to collude will exploit a wide array of scenarios - the ability to muck at showdown being only one of them. So, I do believe that we still need to protect the all-in showdown and should not care about "preventing" a player from misinterpreting the board. IMO, the threat of elimination or doubling up a player by mistake is far worst than someone misreading the board.
You make a good point here but we should still be protecting the integrity of the tournament. Any chips that are gotten in ways that don't explicitly follow the rules can have a drastic impact on the results of the tournament and should be avoided at all costs.
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You make a good point here but we should still be protecting the integrity of the tournament. Any chips that are gotten in ways that don't explicitly follow the rules can have a drastic impact on the results of the tournament and should be avoided at all costs.
Spence,
Yes. It is our job to protect the integrity of the tournament and we'll do our best to achieve it.
However, perfect protection is impossible in all forms of competitions or sports. Referees will make wrong calls, external factors will come in play (https://youtu.be/0uXZ3_A2nGs ), players will make dumb mistakes.
IMO, when a player that mucks a hand and does not receive chips he would have been given had he paid more attention, is not changing the result of a hand.
The result of that hand is that there is only one hand, that hand was tabled and wins the pot. Period.
If you alert that player he is about to make a mistake, make him table his cards and give him half the pot that would have gone to the alert and attentive player, now you're changing the result of the hand, now you're giving chips to someone that shouldn't have earned them and now you're being unfair, at least, in my personal definition of fairness.
Good positive discussion, by the way, folks :-)
DC
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D.C.:
You've got to be kidding. We're not talking about a player that fails to realize that he has a straight and doesn't call a bet...we're talking about a player that put his chips in the pot and is in for all bets. I'm with Spence on this one, and that's the card room I want to play in. It goes back to those arguments about the right to see a called hand. We still haven't figured that one out!
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We're not talking about a player that fails to realize that he has a straight and doesn't call a bet...
What?? We're exactly talking about a player that didn't realize he had a straight and mucked his hand :-) This is exactly what the original poster wrote.
The fact that he had a straight playing all 5 board cards is irrelevant. When you play texas holdem you end up having 7 cards to make your best 5-card hand possible.
The relevant fact is he misread the board and misinterpreted his hand, and you want to award him chips for that.
I am goint to describe this situation in other words: if, in the original poster's example, you give any chips to the player that mucked cards (B) you're basically saying that player B needs to be protected from a mistake caused solely by his own personal lack of attention, if a situation arises in which player A, on the showdown, does not hold cards that would make a 5-card hand combination better than the five cards on the board, therefore, making him use the board cards as his hand and, in conclusion, leading the hand to a split.
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You make a good point here but we should still be protecting the integrity of the tournament. Any chips that are gotten in ways that don't explicitly follow the rules can have a drastic impact on the results of the tournament and should be avoided at all costs.
The explicit rules of the tournament state that if the player mucks his hand in this scenario that he doesn't win any chips. If we push him half the pot we will have given him chips in a way that does not explicitly follow the rules of the tournament. If we interfere, then we are having an impact on the results of the tournament. We should avoid this at all costs.
Poker is a game of skill and constant awareness, if a player doesn't table a hand he never gets part of a pot, this is an established rule in card rooms across the country. We make players table their hands fully to ensure they didn't have a fouled hand, among other things.
What if the other player only had one card in his hand or three cards in his hand? We would never know he had a fouled hand because we didn't make him table his hand.
I feel like this is my haymaker though: If a board reads 7-7-10-10-3 and Player A shows 2-2 which is counterfeited and he's playing the board and the other guy mucks are we gonna push the mucker any part of the pot? Why not? Unless he has 2-2 or 2-3 he would have won the entire pot. Are you gonna push a guy who mucks his hand the entire pot? Why would you only push him half if we don't know if he should have received half or all?
The correct answer is: you push him 0 because he didn't table his hand and he wasn't all-in and that's the rule.
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Shouldn't argue with DC on this one. :-[
But you did anyways. Hahaha :D
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Yeah, Thomas...and I'm not finished yet. ;D
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In a cash game the mucker gets nothing. In a tourney it's our responsibility to ensure that the hand comes to it's proper conclusion.
If the guy tabled and said I have a pair of kings we would still read the board as a straight. The cards in the hand do not matter. Only that the winning hand is on the board and the chips should be split.
Just to spice things up in an old card room I worked at you could call your hand as the board and it would play without opening but this was a CASH ONLY rule. Collusion in cash has less significance because it is a closed universe. One hand does not effect any further hand because the number of chips in play can fluctuate. In a tournament the number of chips will always stay the same (minus chip races or chips removed due to circumstances not related to the argument at hand) and each hand does effect the outcome of the rest until there is only one player left.
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Spence,
I don't know if there are others who agree with me on some of my opinions, it's hard to tell. If there are, for the most part, they prefer to remain silent. I will say this...it's great when someone like you speaks up, especially when we agree! 8) ;)
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Well Nick at least there's two of us for the integrity of the tournament. As for everyone else...
Yep, those are fighting words! ;D