PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Suggestions for new TDA rules and amendments to existing rules READ-ONLY ARCHIVES Pre-2015 Summit => Topic started by: MikeB on October 05, 2014, 10:19:18 AM
-
Is it a call or a raise? Further discussion of this issue can be found in this thread:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1060.msg9194#msg9194
-
Mike, I really believe that the players unclear action should be a call. Not only does the oversize chip rule make sense...he could have (and should have) said "raise" instead of "I bet."
I really think "make your intentions clear" should be enough to justify the floors' decision. It is a good subject for discussion at the next summit, but the solution should not be too dragged out or technical. Say what you mean, or push the correct amount forward. Also, as you stated, "when a bet is unclear, it is the lesser of..."
-
Nick:
Definitely you've outlined one camp on this.
Here's another way of arriving at the same conclusion:
1: Per RRoP, bet can be either a verb (when taking initial action on a round), or a noun when referencing one's bet in "a bet, call or raise".
2: Hence, when interpreted as a noun, saying "bet" then pushing out a 5k overchip when facing a 2k bet can be seen as tantamount to saying "here's my bet" (using bet as a noun), then tossing the overchip... which of course is a call.
Will be interesting to see where the majority comes down on this.
-
I'm on Nick's side here.
What happens if the player says "bet"... Throws 5000 chip on the table... "Two thousand". Now what do you do? Enforce the "must state amount of wager before the chip hits the surface rule"? Is it a verbal string bet? Do you deem it a bet of $5k, $2k, min-raise, call?
Anyhow, I think the default should be call here. I don't see it being that much different from "I'm in"... Throws chip... Are we to assume the chip is the amount he's in for? Let's not go down this path. Personally, I think It's much easier to explain to players that they need to make their wagers 100% clear, then to allow it and have to justify the decision to other players by explaining the nuances of word usage in RROP.
-
I like sticking to the standard of using the smaller amount when there is an unclear situation regarding betting situations.
-
So for the reasons mentioned above there's alot of support for the idea that the declaration "bet", when facing a bet, is a call, yes?
THEN, question.... Once a player facing a bet utters the term "bet", have they locked themselves into a call of the bet amount to them??
For example,
A: when facing a 2k bet, can the player say "I bet..... 10K".... or does the use of the word "bet" instantly lock them into a call?
OR
B: Is the term "I bet" (or "bet" if you wish), not definitive by itself when facing a bet? And hence, the follow-on action, be it 1) a declared amount; or 2) the declaration of call or raise; or 3) the silent push of chips indicate the final action?
-
Mike,
I believe it's much easier to insist that players learn the proper way to raise. If a player, facing a bet, says raise first...he can follow that with any verbiage he'd like. In your example: when facing a 2K bet I would say no...the player can not say, "I bet" and follow it with anything other than a call. "I bet" is for the first player initiating a wager (in turn) on a specific round of betting. It reminds me of the silent bettor who tosses a 5K chip into the pot when facing a 2K bet...it's a call. The same player tossing 5K into the pot on his turn to act, when not facing a bet, has wagered 5K. K-Lo and Tristan have it right, the default should be a call, or the lesser amount.
Part of "make your intention clear" would be to announce "raise" first. We can then wait for the decided amount. Teaching the players to announce a raise, before saying anything else, is much easier than trying to create a solution for a questionable action.
-
Part of "make your intention clear" would be to announce "raise" first. We can then wait for the decided amount. Teaching the players to announce a raise, before saying anything else, is much easier than trying to create a solution for a questionable action.
Good point Nick, but that still doesn't help with coming to a consensus on what to do with the players that fail to learn from that instruction.
-
Tristan,
We do just like you said. We hold them to the lowest amount. That's it! They will soon learn that if they want to raise, they will either say "raise" first, or suffer the unintended consequences.
-
I try to give my opinion, hoping i understood corectly everything I read before...
The question is "bet does mean call" ? Can we turn the question and make it "call does mean bet" ? I'd say no because "bet" means several things (like Mike wrote, a player saying "i bet 10 thousand" should be interpreted as " i raise").
Then there are, imo, two options :
- bet without amount and with one chip only should be a call
- bet with amount or several chips should be a raise
-
Nicolas,
I'd like to mention one of the reasons for so much confusion whenever we play out these scenarios. When a player is facing a bet, he may; fold, call or raise. He must never say "I bet" or "bet" followed by a different amount. Tossing a single oversize chip is a call. Tossing multiple chips that exceed the original bet amount, could constitute a raise if 50% or more of the bet is the sum of those chips. This could depend on the house rule or the type of game and limit being played.
When a player wants to raise a bet amount that he is facing; #1 He should announce that he is raising before saying anything else, or #2 push the intended amount (bet+raise) forward. The only condition he will face (without declaring raise) is if he uses a single oversize chip.
Initiating a bet, or when first to act on a betting round, without a verbal declaration will be considered the total value of a single chip or the combination of multiple chips. This, of course, will apply for pot limit and no limit.
I think you will have a greater understanding if you concentrate on separating "bets" from "raises." When betting (post flop), you my bet or check; when you are facing a bet: you may fold, call or raise.
-
This might be a regional thing, but around here when people agree to a proposed bet of some kind, they often respond with just the word "bet" to show that they are agreeing to the terms of the bet. Person A: "I'll bet you $5 I can throw this cup into the trash can from here" Person B: "bet". Now, this isn't the case at a poker table, but it goes to show how some people do use that word in some situations to mean that they are agreeing a wager.
If I had to make a rule regarding the word bet in the poker room, I'd go with something like this:
"The use of the word bet will result in a player making at least the minimum bet or call amount; however if a player fails to indicate an intended bet amount, the player may be restricted to betting only the absolute minimum applicable amount."
This would mean I have to at least call if I'm facing a bet, and I have to at least bet the minimum if not facing a bet. If I throw out an overchip after saying bet, I may be held to the minimum if I don't clarify in a timely manner.
-
Shorten it up...and it's perfect! It's the way a rule should be, clear and precise!
-
Perhaps the discussion should be: “What is the meaning of a standard poker term when used in a non-standard manner?”
What would it mean if a player tosses in two oversized chips and says either call, fold, or check? Is the verbal declaration binding? Would the chips put in the pot in turn stay in the pot?
I’m not sure how rules 2, 3, 37, 40, 41 and 49 could be more clear but a good discussion might answer that question.
-
BillM416:
In my opinion, we need to do everything possible to instruct players to abide by some simple rules: If you are under the gun pre-flop, you may muck, call or raise. You may either announce that you are calling or toss in that exact amount. If you wish to raise, you must announce that you are raising...this will freeze the action until the amount is determined, or you must push the total amount forward in a single motion.
Without a verbal announcement of your intended wager before pushing chips forward; The single oversize chip rule will apply. Furthermore, a bet does not constitute a raise, they are two different actions. After the flop, each player will respond (in turn) by folding, calling or raising.
Bill, to answer your question: "What would it mean if a player tosses in two over-sized chips and says, either call, fold, or check?" First of all, I don't know how a player could do that and expect anyone to understand his intent. "Is his verbal declaration binding?" Yes, but only if his verbal precedes his action. "Would the chips put in the pot stay in the pot?" This would depend on a number of possible scenarios...
-
NickC:
I totally agree. A player should not be able to say "bet" and expect it to constitute a "raise." The existing rules seem to make clear that use of a standard term constitutes a binding action and that non-standard usage should not result in a contrary action. Verbal is always binding unless chip(s) hit the table (beyond the betting line) first. Furthermore, assuming verbal was binding as described in my scenario above, clearly those chips should not stay in the pot as a legitimate poker bet cannot be made after calling, folding, or checking. Of course, these discussions offer great opportunities to improve the simple clarity of the rules.
-
Correction: calling is of course a legitimate bet ...
-
Bill:
One of the problems (another one, I should say) that I always have is the Player that is misled by another player, or the dealer. If a dealer tells me it's $100 to call, I almost always assume (that's why we should never assume) that the dealer is correct and if I follow his lead, I'd like the right to retract my action if the dealer was wrong. Whether a player were skipped, or the amount was incorrect. However, the rules do not support my way of thinking. This is one of my biggest disagreements with Accepted Action...I'd rather correct the action and allow the misinformed player, a chance to correct his action, as long as another player has not acted behind him. Sometimes forcing a player to leave his chips in the pot does not feel right, or is not in the best interest of the game. This is what I was referring to when I said it depended on the situation. I guess this is when we get the chance to use good old TDA #1 ;D
Each situation can be similar, yet may call for a different decision based on, the players intent, the action of another player, the misinformation from the dealer, or any number of other scenarios. You will also realize that the great majority of the time, you will not be a witness to the miscue...you will have to make your decision based on second hand information from your dealer, and then the players! ::) Good luck with that! "I said raise before the chip hit the table!" "No you didn't!" "Come on dealer, you heard me...didn't you?" FLOOR...FLOOR