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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Forward motion of cards or chips

« Last post by Ralf009 on Today at 06:56:55 AM »

Hi Guys, this looks like the most recent topic regarding forward motion so i'm going to ask my question here. We have a poker club, all self deal events, buyins €25 to  €50, fields between 100 and 300 entries to give you an idea what were doing.

We have a player who has been caught doing the following multiple times (in different events): On the river when he is heads up he takes all of his remaining chips clearly moving them forward in his hand across the betting line and than when he notices his opponent reaching for chips or even saying call in one case he rethinks his actions and takes his chips back.

Where would you guys draw the line regarding what is allowed and what not? and what kind of penalty would be given ?

In another case the player is also heads up on the river and he says "all-in?" telling us it was his goal to ask if the player would go all-in... only did the other player not receive it as a question but as an actual declaration of all-in and snapcalls with the nuts. Rest of the table heard the words all-in as well and he just claimed it was all-in? as a question? ever had this case happen? As floor in this case i couldn't do anything since they called me to the table while all cards were already discarded and neither of the 2 players actually tabled their hand. So the 2nd person just took the pot and agreed not to get the remaining chips of the other player

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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Dealer error: do we force player to pay?

« Last post by Nick C on April 20, 2024, 05:38:07 AM »

There are many other rulesets for poker.
 Show me another that puts all the responsibility of an inaccurate call amount on the calling player,?


49: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount or declares call, the caller has accepted the full correct action and is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion. See also RP-12.

A calling player, given the incorrect amount from the bettor or the dealer, after asking:  "How much is it to call?"   

Are you really going to apply Accepted Action?

I believe you should take a closer look at the rule and pay more attention to the last two sentences.

          As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion. See also RP-12.
                     

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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Dealer error: do we force player to pay?

« Last post by Dave Miller on April 19, 2024, 10:01:51 PM »

Nick, I respectfully disagree. Without that rule, you open the game up to angle shooting.

Bottom line, know the rules, and know the action.

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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Dealer error: do we force player to pay?

« Last post by Nick C on April 19, 2024, 03:16:20 PM »

Brooks,
 
Sorry, I don't agree with you on this one. There are times when common sense should overrule an obvious mistake.
Forcing a player to pay up and surrender his hand is a little too severe.

Some day you will be making a bluff, and because of this ridiculous rule, a player who had no intention of calling your raise, will be forced to call you and beat you!

There's too much here to try to cover but some rules from the past should have been left alone!

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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Dealer error: do we force player to pay?

« Last post by BROOKS on April 16, 2024, 09:39:53 PM »

Regardless of what the dealer says the bet is, if a player whose turn it is to act, says "I call", they are calling whatever the actual bet is.

Once that player said call, they are committed to calling the amount of the bet. Mucking his cards does not change anything. He owes the 125, and his hand is dead.

49: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount or declares call, the caller has accepted the full correct action and is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion. See also RP-12.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Rules #12 #13 #65 Italian Field - easy but hard (?l)

« Last post by Nick C on April 12, 2024, 10:03:29 PM »

Hello, Dave

 It always seems that there are things that occur that we are not certain of. We know, if all of the rules are followed, and all of the dealers correct a mistake before it happens, life would be much more simple.

When I read about a situation like the one we are discussing, I try to figure out why the error occurred. Like you said, if the cards were properly tabled, I don't believe there would be any argument.

Have a nice weekend.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Rules #12 #13 #65 Italian Field - easy but hard (?l)

« Last post by Dave Miller on April 12, 2024, 03:11:04 AM »

… The lady announces "two pair", showing the cards, I announce "not enough" and turn over the set. The Dealer takes the lady's cards and mucks them without looking at them …

Without the Lady's cards being properly tabled, there is no way the pot should be awarded to her, in my opinion.
If her hand were properly exposed, face up for all to see, that is a different situation. …

Hmmm…

When I read it, I interpreted it as if the cards WERE properly exposed and tabled, but Nick seems to think that wasn’t the case - that maybe the lady merely held them up for her neighbors to see and that she dropped them face down, or the dealer took them out of her hand.

Which is it? If Nick is right, then I retract everything I said.

Of course if the dealer took them out of her hand, that’s a whole other set of problems.

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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Dealer error: do we force player to pay?

« Last post by Nick C on April 11, 2024, 12:17:14 PM »

This is an old post that I am just responding to. I understand that "verbal is binding" however, when it is immediately understood that the player misunderstood that the bet was 125 instead of 100, I would base my decision on whether "substantial action" has followed before forcing a player to put 100 in the pot and surrendering his hand, or even worse...forcing him to call when that was not his intention.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Rules #12 #13 #65 Italian Field - easy but hard (?l)

« Last post by Nick C on April 11, 2024, 12:09:50 PM »

Without the Lady's cards being properly tabled, there is no way the pot should be awarded to her, in my opinion.

If her hand were properly exposed, face up for all to see, that is a different situation. The rules clearly state that a winning hand can not be killed provided the player is in for all bets and the hand was properly tabled but mistakenly mucked by the dealer.

Did the woman know she had a flush? Aparently not, otherwise she would have announced a flush instead of saying, "Two pair."

The dealer also is not completely at fault. The dealer will assist the players in reading the proper hand, but, the ultimate responsibility is with the player to protect their hand before it hits the muck.

I do agree that you should NEVER go into the muck in poker. Muck cards are dead, and when properly mucked, they are mixed into the muck in such a fashion that it can not be determined who originally possess which cards.

Mucked cards in black jack are stacked in order, so each hand can be examined, but in poker, they are not!

So, if the information you gave was accurate, in my opinion, the mucked hand had to be properly tabled in order to award her the pot.

If the decision were based on players, looking into her hand before she mucked them, without putting them face up on the table.

The pot should have been yours.

I hope I've explained your situation so it can help you in the future.
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Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Rules #12 #13 #65 Italian Field - easy but hard (?l)

« Last post by Nick C on April 11, 2024, 11:58:50 AM »

Without the Lady's cards being properly tabled, there is no way the pot should be awarded to her, in my opinion.

If her hand were properly exposed, face up for all to see, that is a different situation. The rules clearly state that a winning hand can not be killed provided the player is in for all bets and the hand was properly tabled but mistakenly mucked by the dealer.

Did the woman know she had a flush? Aparently not, otherwise she would have announced a flush instead of saying, "Two pair."

The dealer also is not completely at fault. The dealer will assist the players in reading the proper hand, but, the ultimate responsibility is with the player to protect their hand before it hits the muck.

I do agree that you should NEVER go into the muck in poker. Muck cards are dead, and when properly mucked, they are mixed into the muck in such a fashion that it can not be determined who originally possess which cards.

Mucked cards in black jack are stacked in order, so each hand can be examined, but in poker, they are not!

So, if the information you gave was accurate, in my opinion, the mucked hand had to be properly tabled in order to award her the pot.

If the decision were based on players, looking into her hand before she mucked them, without putting them face up on the table.

The pot should have been yours.

I hope I've explained your situation so it can help you in the future.