i noticed in posts that at the summit it was determined to penalize players who folded in turn when in a check situatiion and I never quite understood the reasoning there. Clue me in on that if you may.
Hi mooredog:
This is a great question. I am asked this a lot by my dealers and TDs, so I will try to present a detailed example (once you get the gist of it, I'm sure you can come up with other examples) that I think explains why folding in turn post-flop when check is an option is extremely improper. Hopefully you will find this persuasive. Folding in turn post-flop when checking is an option is, in my view, at the very least a breach of etiquette since it potentially influences how the hand might otherwise have naturally played out, and worse, fails to protect other players in the tournament. Consider the following example:
Final table. SB is the chip leader at the table. BB is one of the short stacks at the table, and the button has a medium stack. Action folds around to the button who limps in. The SB calls. BB checks his option. Three players to the flop. The SB is first to act, and checks. After the SB checks, it is the BB's turn to act.
Let's look at the situation from the perspective of the BB and the button. In this scenario, BB may generally feel disinclined to bluff - there are two remaining opponents, so even if he feels that he can get the button to fold, he will still be afraid that the SB (who is chip leader) will call, and he might not want to risk busting before the shorter stacks at the table do. Similarly, if the BB checks to the button, the button may be hesitant to bet for fear of a check-raise from the SB. The button may not mind if the short-stacked BB called, but he might fear being raised by the SB and be forced to fold or potentially get knocked out if he calls, when there are still other shorter stacks at the table.
Now suppose that we change the example slightly, and the SB (chip leader), instead of checking, decides to fold upon seeing the flop ("I have nothing anyways").
The dynamics of the hand can change dramatically. Suddenly, the short-stacked BB may now be more likely to shove here since he only has 1 opponent to worry about instead of 2, and so his chances of winning the pot outright has increased tremendously. Not only has SB's unconventional fold put the button at a disadvantage, but it also fails to protect everyone else in the tournament who wants to see the BB get called and get knocked out. Furthermore, allowing the SB to fold here opens up the possibility of collusion between the SB and BB: if BB pushes, it might look strange if SB didn't call given the amount needed to call, but if SB takes himself out of the play by folding in advance, then no one would suspect anything.
Similarly, if the BB checked to the button, the button also now has much more reason to bet or shove. He can put maximum pressure now on the short-stacked BB, without having to face any risk of action from the SB. In fact, he can now be as aggressive as he wants
without any risk of being eliminated from the tournament -- a situation that would not have been present if the SB were still in the hand. Thus, SB's unconventional fold has now put the BB at a clear disadvantage.
The point here is that it doesn't matter what cards the players actually have in this situation - allowing the SB to fold "early" in multi-way pots can unduly influence how the rest of the hand would naturally have played out, and in my mind, it is just as bad as a player announcing that he folded pocket deuces when the flop comes down 2-2-x and there are players still aggressively contesting the pot.
All that being said, I think the BB accidentally folding his option pre-flop is a different situation, and should be treated differently, as it is almost always accidental. In the Rule 45 situation, it is almost
never accidental; it is usually because the player is too impatient to wait until the action comes back around to him to fold, and it is usually for very selfish reasons (I need a smoke, I need a drink, I need to go to the washroom, I need to take a call, etc., etc., etc.)