Mike,
I have to say that I agree with the response from the anonymous person's inquiry. I think the new changes put too much blame on the skipped player. In my opinion, the OOT player is the culprit. The Out Of Turn Rule should focus more on exactly that...out of turn.
I'm not looking for an argument, especially one I can't win. I made suggestions on this Forum years ago, and I still feel the same: I will add Rule #29 to my list of TDA rules that could use some work. This is NOT the TDA rule, only my suggestions for improvement
RULE # 29 VERBAL DECLARATIONS / ACTING IN TURN ****** Please Note, the # of the rule has changed, and Acting In Turn and OOT are Split between #37 and #38.
This is not a current rule...it is my suggestion from years ago.
29.1 Players must act in turn. Verbal declarations in turn will have precedence over actions or gestures. Therefore; a player stating a wager, but pushing a different amount into the pot, will be corrected to the spoken amount.
29.2 Players acting out of turn because they were misled by another player, or the dealer, will have the right to retract their wager and change their action provided another player has not acted after them. If another player acts, (substantial action) the skipped player, or players, may only fold or call when action returns to them, they can not raise.
29.3 Deliberate action out of turn, including words and gestures, WILL BE AS BINDING AS A BET IN TURN. The deliberate action out of turn will remain in the pot even if the intervening player raises in front of them. The out of turn player can call, or surrender their bet and fold. The option to raise will be taken away.
29.4 Any out of turn action may seriously disrupt the flow of the game. Deliberate action out of turn is highly unethical in any form of poker. Therefore, repeat offenders will be penalized up to, and including, being eliminated from tournament play, at the discretion of the floor.
This is from a prior post.
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=169.0I want to pass this along to everyone. I have found that the rules used in Las Vegas over thirty years ago, (the Las vegas Hilton Rule Book) set the standards for RRoP and any other rules that followed. I will submit this portion exactly as written (only a small portion).
A 13. ACTION OUT OF TURN
A player has a right to act on his hand, and an obligation to notify the other players that he has not yet acted when the
betting action bypasses him. Therefore, the following rules apply when the betting action bypasses a player who has
not yet acted:
a.) IF SUBSTANTIAL ACTION TAKES PLACE BEHIND A PLAYER WHOSE TURN HAS COME TO ACT AND HAS NOT YET ACTED, THE ACTIONS STAND.
THE PLAYER MUST CHECK IF THERE HAS NOT BEEN A BET TO HIM, AND MAY ONLY CALL OR FOLD IF THERE WAS A BET TO HIM.
"SUBSTANTIAL ACTION" MEANS EITHER THREE PLAYERS ACTING, OR TWO PLAYERS ACTING BY PUTTING MONEY IN THE POT. THE DEALER
COUNTS AS A PERSON IF HE HAS CONDONED THE ACTION, AND IS CONSIDERED HAVING ACTED IF HE HAS DEALT THE BURNCARD OFF THE
DECK OR PUSHED THE ACTION PAST THE PROPER PLAYER.
b.) IF SUBSTANTIAL ACTION HAS TAKEN PLACE AFTER A PLAYER WHO HAS NOT YET ACTED, AND THE DEALER DEALS ANY CARDS FOR THE NEXT
ROUND, THE PLAYER WHO HAS NOT CALLED ALL BETS HAS A DEAD HAND
Amazing! Everyboby is still blaming the poor chap that got skipped! ......"Oh Mr Jones, your hand is dead because Freddy bet out of turn and then the dealer let Sally raise Freddy's bet." I'm smiling, but it really isn't that funny.
The OOT bettor is the offending player. That is where the problem began. Like I said before, why allow him any chance to dictate how much, the player that was skipped should bet? If he bets out of turn, and he was not misled by the dealer or another player, he should be held to his intentional Out Of Turn action. That's what I don't like about the rule as written. The more I think about it, the more I feel that the OOT should have no raise option, either.
I like the idea of punishment to the offending player.