Hey Nick,
(Thanks for catching my error, I corrected the previous post.)
I am not surprised by any of your answers. In fact, I expected these from you. The problem though is this. Rarely do I see dealers perform official sanctioned mucks at showdown as you have defined them. In my observations, the most common dealer merely pushes forward the community cards that contribute to the winning hand. Then, an additional number of dealers will turn the losing hand(s) face down before pushing the pot. I think the number of dealers that consistently gather up discarded hands at showdown and push them into a muck pile are few - even at the WSOP - and much less so in local clubs and casinos. At least, this has been my experience.
So, what is the showdown player to do when the dealer isn't performing an official muck? Should they slow the game down and ask the dealer to muck the discards into the pile before showing their hands? After all, they have an obligation to protect their hand at showdown.
Here again, having read many of 2,945 posts, I'm pretty sure I know your answer. But, while I might be slightly overestimating the number of dealers that don't muck correctly, I'm certain that I have not witnessed a single player who held out until his dealer did it correctly.
I do appreciate your responses Nick. I'm hoping others will chime in with their experience and opinions as well.
It is interesting to watch the 2015 Summit Video discussion of Rule #14 A & B as it was written in 2013. In particular, you will note a conversation from a Russian gentleman (sorry, couldn't catch name) in Day 1 of the video at the 1:04:30 timeline. It was on the subject of this thread in terms of defining the muck. There is no universally accepted definition. This goes back to differences in house rules where there are forward motion rules, with or without betting lines, the burn cards, the board cards, the discard piles and the dealers muck area - all being separate entities. According to Neil Johnson of PokerStars Live Poker Operations the muck is the entire area around the dealer. While, Matt Savage of WPT apparently considers the muck to be the discard pile as do you. Linda Johnson, The First Lady of Poker, also speaks of the victims of untrained dealers at 1:07:45.
It is also interesting to note that this "change his mind" rule didn't exist at all in 2011. In 2013 the rule had two parts:
TDA 2013 Rule 14: Live Cards at Showdown
A: If the house does not have a mucking line or forward motion rule at showdown, pushing non- tabled cards forward face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable. However, the cards are at risk of being killed by the dealer when he pushes them into the muckpile.
B: If a mucking line or forward motion rule is in effect at showdown, house standards apply.
I haven't found where the 2015 changes were discussed in the Summit video. But, much was changed - including changing "muckpile" to "muck" and removing all references to a muck line. In your responses Nick, you used muck-pile. In 2015 it became simply the muck - without any TDA guidelines or recommended procedures.
Now, I realize that a consensus on the meaning of "into the muck" at the 2017 Summit could be a challenge. But of course, it is the mission of the TDA to standardize these rules and this one seems to be worthwhile. Simply stated, without a standard TDA meaning of "into the muck" the TDA rule cannot be enforced uniformly. At a minimum, the rule could be altered to include. The muck is defined according to house rules.