Mike, The issue here is the fact that some of us are blaming the dealer (dealer error) for mucking a hand. The rules clearly state that the Player is to blame if the dealer, by accident kills an "unprotected" hand!
Not sure what rule that is? The TDA rule does state that if a player's cards are mucked in error the player will have no redress but will have any uncalled bet returned to them. It does not say that the player's entire stack will be shipped to a player who hasn't called them (yes, even if "we're real sure" they would have been called).
Mike, You said:
"I'm not "defending" Koroknoi in any way... but I defend the decision made by Jack Effel not to ship all of Koroknoi's chips to a player who had not called him at the time his cards were mucked."
What's to protect any player in a similar position (Baumann) from a player making a move (Koroknai) by going all-in with a terrible hand, attempting a bluff! When he realises he might be called...he ditches his hand hoping for the exact ruling that was made.
First of all I have no reason to believe that's what happened... a very artful intentional bet / muck... but even if it was then you go to the Penalties section of the rules and apply the harshest available penalty, none of which is to ship all the guys chips to someone who hasn't called him, sorry.
Somehow, I think if Jack Effel were present and not having the situation explained to him over the phone, he would have made the correct decision...not the one he made. Even the announcer said the rule should be reviewed.
Jack was advised over the phone by Dennis Jones one of the most experienced veteran floor people in the business. It's not an unfathomable situation where "you had to be there". Guy bets, the BB folds, Koroknai tosses his cards the dealer mucks them THEN they realize Baumann is still in the hand. You're selectively quoting the announcer... Lon McEachern also said "Koroknai mucked his cards
not realizing Gail was still in the hand". i.e. he made a mistake. Try as we might we can't make poker 100% mistake free.
How can we not consider Accepted Action in this situation??? Koroknai was the SB, Baumann raised the BB to 60K Koroknai goes all-in for 1,327,000 (or somewhere thereabouts)... The BB folds. This leaves Baumann, the only opposing player. The fact that she was holding pocket Kings was determined after the decision was made.
None of that has anything to do with AA, sorry. AA would apply if Baumann had called she would have then accepted the entire amount of Koroknai's action, whatever the total bet was. She didn't do that, therefore AA is not an issue here.
The FACTS: #1 Koroknai mucked his own hand
#2 Baumann did nothing wrong
#3 Nobody knows what Koroknai's cards were
#4 Baumann showed her pocket Kings
Speculation: Does anyone believe that Baumann was going to fold?...Of course not!
So if we think a player might call, then if their opponent's cards are mucked we will just go ahead and channel whatever action we think the pending player would have made, and then proceed as if they actually had made that action, correct? What rule is that?
Could Koroknai have been making a move?...Possible.
You have allowable penalties under TDA rules up to and including expulsion from the tournament, but shipping all a players chips to someone who hasn't called them isn't one of them. How would you like to be another player at that table and see a monster stack of chips sent to one of your competitors who had not called the bet? Further, if you think there's a chance that Koroknai made a mistake (which I certainly do and many people who saw the clip think so) then what kind of fairness would it be to ship all his chips? You seem to base your argument as defending against an angle which you're not convinced occurred here.
How could a world class player be that stupid? Don't want to hear; "Everybody makes mistakes"...Everyone does make mistakes, but not world class players in a situation like that..
World class players don't make mistakes? How about Phil Ivey tossing a winning flush face down at a showdown at the WSOP final table?
those mistakes have consequences.
Yes, but they don't automatically include shipping your entire uncalled stack to a player who hasn't called you. Baumann got the entire called pot and Koroknai could have been severely punished if it was judged to be intentional.