PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: mooredog on February 21, 2012, 01:31:19 PM
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Everytime I run a tournament where play gets into a hand for hand situation there are always complaints in one form or another. Hand for hand is always at the money bubble or at a big prize money jump and one way to deal with slow play (which limits the amount of hands played per blind level for everyone) is to put players on the clock quickly. Always the short stacks in the tank complain that their desicion is too important to be rushed and if you don't rush them the other table or tables if they have finished their hands and are waiting start screaming about the tournament clock and want it stopped. Let's hear how you guys deal with this issue. Any WSOP people out there? In the big tourneys I believe the tournament clock keeps moving.
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Sounds OK to me Mooredog, I keep my clock running at hand for hand and do not make any allowances for lost time. I think a quick clock is reasonable also, I think your short stack complainers have answered their own grievance, The big stacks have worked hard to have those stacks, going into the bubble, so why should they be held up needlessly long by short stackers who should in practice and mathematically have even simpler decisions to make.
Regards
Stuart
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I don't think I would ever stop the clock in this situation. A tournament is a timed game, and we aim to finish it within a fixed period of time. Let the clock keep running... If you allow the players to push you into "adjusting" the clock, you are then goinng to get complaints that you are adding to much time to the clock, not enough, messing up the break schedule, etc. etc.
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I have never stopped the clock and usually tell the impatient players to cool it and be thankful they aren't facing a decision for their tournament lives but it does get old listening to the grumbling. When it's a jump from zero money on the bubble to $1000 or more for bottom money I've had the short stack who's in the tank (and his railbirds) get irate when I put the clock on them. I know most everyone clocks their players fairly quickly in hand for hand, but was wondering how long you give them. The normal tourney standard of a minimum 2 minutes before putting them on the clock is way too long for hand/hand play and HPT events I've run call for the one minute clock as soon as it's their turn to act. Too extreme?? I worked as a dealer years ago in a WPT event but can't remember the hand/hand clock procedure and as I asked in the previous post, is their anyone out there who has worked a recent WSOP?
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Gentlemen,
One minute is too long to wait after a player is "on the clock" and waiting two minutes before putting someone on the clock is even more ridiculous. I did not work the WSOP, sorry, but I can tell you this, if all players took that much time, you might not complete one hand in thirty minutes. On-line poker had it right, about 15 seconds (or less) and if you didn't respond, your hand was dead! Hand for hand should call for a quicker response. There you have it, just another rule I don't care for.
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Getting a bit off track here, but anyway, one minute doesn't take as long as you'd think because in most hand for hand situations you can have players on the clock on multiple tables at the same time. Multiple table hand for hand (more than 2 tables) does call for extra supervisors to monitor it though. A lot of times you just use dealers on break to help because hand for hand rarely lasts more than 4 or 5 hands dealt simultaneously.
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mooredog,
You're not too far off track. I know it usually isn't that big of a problem...but it could be. If each player took just one minute to act (forget the resonable time before calling for a clock), a dealer wouldn't have time to finish one hand in a 8 handed game! Do the math. 2 hands per hour ain't gonna cut it.
As far as stopping the tournament clock, I have to agree with Stuart and K-Lo, let the clock keep running. If I had continued problems like mooredog describes, believe me, I'd make use of rule number 1 real fast.
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One minute per on an 8 handed game would be 8 minutes plus the less than a minute it takes a competent dealer to read, push the pot, shuffle, and pitch the next deal of cards. So that's 9 minutes a hand max, assuming everyone ends up clocked. You do realize hand for hand is dealt with all tables simutaneously pitching their cards at the same time? So figure a minute tops for all the tables to wait for each other to finish their shuffles and off you go. That math is 6 or more hands per hour which is quite slow (assuming all 8 are clocked) but not quite as slow as Nick suggested.
My original post was to find out how many of you had players mouthing off during the hand/hand period and if you had any interesting ways of addressing it. My question I believe has been adequately discussed and I thank you for the input.
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mooredog,
It's highly unlikely, as we both agree, but your calculations are based on one betting round...there are 4.
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Wow, are you ever right. How did I miss that? Oh well, on to the next subject. And I did just find out from a friend that never, never, ever do they stop the clock at the wsop except if there's an incident where rulings, hand reconstuctions, etc. have to be done.
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Our calling for clock procedure.
Calling for Clock Procedure: Players must be at their seats to call time. Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called, a player will be given one (1) minute to act. If action has not been taken by the time the minute has expired, there will be a ten (10) second countdown. If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead. Tournament Supervisors have the right to speed up the amount of time allotted for a clock if it appears that a player is deliberately stalling. Any player intentionally stalling the progress of the game will incur a penalty. Any abuse of the “Clock Rule” will result in a penalty. The Tournament director reserves the right to extend any round time due to slow play or unforeseen circumstances.
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There you go...the perfect answer, and the perfect time for rule #1. It's usually not abused the way I described it but, I hate it when some joker does something like that (stall), just because they feel they are protected by a rule on the books that needs more attention. We did discuss this at the last summit, but the talk was centered around the ten second countdown after the minute passed. I think it was something like 10-9-8...when #1 was reached the floor would say "dead hand."
Hmmmm, I wonder if the rule would kill the hand if there were no bet to that player after he was put on the clock?
A couple scenarios to consider: #1 On the turn, first to act is put on the clock...Is his hand dead if he does not act after 1 minute 10 seconds?
#2 The action is checked to a player that is put on the clock. If he does not act, is his hand dead? (like the rule states) or is he
forced to check?
I would think that both scenarios should be automatic "checks," but I'm sure others will not agree.
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nick,
i would agree in both cases, it is a forced check. i'd assume its an extension of rule 45 against folding when facing a check, even under these unusual circumstances
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Good point about rule 45. I think I would still kill the hand as the rule itself does not seem to apply directly to these circumstances. I would want to be tough on those players who are put on the clock. It is important for the players to understand that it is unfair for them to cause huge delays in the tournament. From a players perpective as well as management we want play to continue without interruption. I have only ever seen players who take their full time on the clock and have had their hands killed be problematic players anyhow.
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but i cant condone killing the hand of players who are possibly put on the clock for the first time in the tournament in this situation. If it is a repeat offender, thats an entirely different situation that needs to be dealth with, but killing a players hand outright when put on a clock facing a check seems to be a bit extreme
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ew2484:
What is the point of putting the player "on the clock" if there is no penalty? When a player is "put on the clock" it is the TD's responsibility to inform the player as to how the process works, ie., "I will time you for one minute, at the end of that minute, I will begin a countdown from 10 down to 1. If you have not acted by the time I speak the number 1, you hand will be dead".
Given this explanation, I see no reason to excuse a player from having his/her hand declared "dead" if they do not act in time. Doesn't make any difference to me if it is the 1st time or the 101st time, the result is the same.
Chet
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ew2484:
What is the point of putting the player "on the clock" if there is no penalty? When a player is "put on the clock" it is the TD's responsibility to inform the player as to how the process works, ie., "I will time you for one minute, at the end of that minute, I will begin a countdown from 10 down to 1. If you have not acted by the time I speak the number 1, you hand will be dead".
Chet
I agree with Chet that explaining to players what will happen when the clock runs out is one of the best preventative measures that you can take to avoid problems at the end of the countdown. People get confused as to whether their hand will be dead at the count of "1" or at what would be the count of "0" or after the count of zero is made and then dead hand is announced, etc.
My approach now is "Ten, Nine, Eight ......, Two, One, Your Hand is Dead". That is, the hand would be dead at what would have been the count of zero, replaced with the Dead Hand declaration. I know that some other rules may explicitly state that the hand is dead on the count of 1, but I believe that really runs counter-intuitive to the concept of a countdown. We don't say, "Ten, Nine, Eight, Seven..., Three, Two, Happy New Year!" lol :D
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And I agree w/K-Lo: My example is just one way of handling this process. I really doesn't make any difference whether you stop at 1 or stop at 0 or anywhere else along the way as long as you have clearly explained to the player the process you will use and that failure to act by "X" will result in a dead hand.