POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General

Folding winning hand, are verbals binding at showdown, & RDW misc.

(1/6) > >>

Guillaume Gleize:
So many tourneys ... so many cases!

I made a decision opposite to the one I made two years before! OOOOPPS ...

Two years ago:
At the showdown (no one all-in):
Player A do not pretend to the pot anymore and choose to fold his cards faces down ...
The dealer (buy error) turn his cards faces up and ... it appeard to be the WINNING HAND (!) ...
I GAVE THE POT TO PLAYER A! (...)

This year:
At the showdown (no one all-in):
Player A do not pretend to the pot anymore and choose to fold his cards faces down, stand up and go for a walk (or WC ...)
At the exact moment player A left the room, another player (player Z who was NOT on the hand) turn the folded cards of player A faces up (!!!) ... and it appeard to be the WINNING HAND (!) ...
I DID NOT GAVE THE POT TO PLAYER A! (...)

OUCH ...

Wich decision was good?
Don't tell me both?
Don't tell me none?

 :D
  

  

Nick C:
In both hands, I would need more information. Was the action on the player when he surrendered his hand? Example: At the showdown, the action is on Player A and he folds. The hand is dead. If the opposing player turns it over, then it would be live. In both examples that you gave, the dealer should have killed the hand immediately. When a player voluntarily surrenders their hand, they give up any right to the pot. There will always be exceptonal situations; a player is led to believe that there are no other players in the hand and they think they are the winner or some other unusual situation.

Nick C

Guillaume Gleize:
Yes, the action actually is on player A when he folds ... he really gives up (even say "I fold" if you want) ... the point is:

Actually (and waiting for more advises from TDA or other references) I still apply this way (wich is my own humble feeling of the "best interest of the game"):

At showdown any player CAN give up and fold his hand face down ... but if (for exemple):

- Some wind return the hand while in the air so it falls on the table faces up REVEALING THE WINNING HAND: the hand is live (and wins)!
- Some unvolunteer movement of the hand or arm of the dealer or any player return the hand while in the air so it falls on the table faces up REVEALING THE WINNING HAND: the hand is live (and wins)!
- A player who participate to the showdown voluntarily return the hand on the table faces up REVEALING THE WINNING HAND: the hand is live (and wins)!
- A player not participating to the showdown (or the dealer) voluntarily return the hand on the table faces up REVEALING THE WINNING HAND: the hand is dead! (so I would not rule it as I did 2 years ago: I support now by this way the decision of Thomas Kremser at the Barcelona EPT Rolland De Wolf case: the dealer returned by error the folded winning hand ... wich was declared dead by Thomas!).

(I don't speak here of any player asking to see the hand in suspicion of collusion wich is another subject!)

GG

Guillaume Gleize:
Any comment on thoses last exemples?

GG

MikeB:

--- Quote from: Guillaume Gleize on June 02, 2010, 08:12:37 AM --- At showdown any player CAN give up and fold his hand face down ... but if (for exemple):
- Some wind return the hand while in the air so it falls on the table faces up REVEALING THE WINNING HAND: the hand is live (and wins)!
GG: It's not written in any specific rule I'm aware of, so I'll just speak for myself: at showdown the term "fold" is meaningless... UNTIL CARDS ARE IRRETRIEVABLY MUCKED BY THE DEALER they can be tabled and played... even if the player says "I fold" or "pot is yours", etc... The cards are still live until irretrievably mucked... The player can change his/her mind, snatch the cards back and table them, for example So if they catch air and turn up, I would rule them live.
- Some unvolunteer movement of the hand or arm of the dealer or any player return the hand while in the air so it falls on the table faces up REVEALING THE WINNING HAND: the hand is live (and wins)! Same answer as above, same reason
--- End quote ---

Your other examples are trickier, because they don't involve accidental exposure of an identifiable hand at showdown... They involve exposure that is A) Deliberate AND B) Erroneous, (except perhaps in the case where a legitimate request to see a hand is made)... because in all those cases the player intended to bet/fold or check/fold, i.e. discard the hand at showdown without revealing it. Personally I feel this entire subject deserves to be a topic of review to establish a comprehensive rule. As a side note, I don't agree that this is exactly what happened in the RDW case because RDW had identified his hand and showed one card, and the entire charade went on for almost 30 seconds before he finally pushed his hand forward. That's far different than an immediate face down fold. But the RDW topic is also worthy of TDA review IMO.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page