Mike,
Matt was wrong and I've got a right to gripe because I'm the one that went on a national pokercast and preached the rule that "somehow" got changed.
Okay, so looks like we need the entirety of the transcript, otherwise we'll just keep hearing "Matt was wrong on Day 2" so here it is
DAY 1
155: Floor: “We’re going to have to standardize SA… whether it’s two or 3 players”
156: Floor: “I advocate 3 players for 2 reasons: allows one extra error to be caught, and the WSOP has already adopted that and it brings us in line with them”.
156:51: Dave Lamb: “The WSOP probably isn’t going to change position that there’s a difference between action w/ chips vs. no chips… the question is whether we should go with 2 actions or 3 actions. So far we’re hearing that 3 players gives us more time to correct the problem… anyone want to argue 2”?
157:00: Floor “Does the dealer count as action… some house rules include the dealer”.
157:39: Matt Savage: “I think the dealer should be considered”
158: Floor: “What I don’t like about 3 acitons after the bet, is that often there aren’t that many players involved….”
158:32: “With 3 players you’re giving the players more time to take a shot then go back on their action. I think it should be 2. 2 Players protects against additional shot taking”.
159: 37: Jan Fisher: “Is dealer rapping the table an action”?
2:00:30: Tim Mix (Venetian): “A lot of houses are deeply divided as to 2 or 3 actions for SA”
201:04: Mike Bishop:
“The WSOP Rule 81 is: SA is 3 folds, 3 checks, but 2 or more calls, a fold and call. Even the world series has a mix of both 2 and 3 actions depending on the type of action. Keep in mind we’ll also be voting on SA standard for OOT action, so whatever your vote here is for misdeal SA, you’ll want to think if it can also apply to SA for OOT.”
202:11: Matt: “Anyone can’t live with 3 actions”
202:16: Floor: “I have AK and I go all in and called… I can’t find the argument for a 3rd player. That’s substantial enough”.
204:29: Floor: “Maybe we should limit it to 2 actions so that would include heads-up situations”
204:50: Floor: “The common rule here is ‘2 actions involving chips or 3 actions total’. A floorperson is capable of going to the table and figuring out if there’s 2 actions involving chips or 3 total (
it’s 3 checks, 3 folds, bet and call, bet and fold) that’s what we’re talking about”205:28: Dave: “You’re arguing this isn’t rocket science”
205:30: Floor: “That’s exactly what I’m arguing… It’s 2 actions with chips or 3 total actions”
205:54: Dave: “Actually, that is the WSOP rule”
206:20 Floor: “Exactly what Thomas said, if the floorperson can’t decipher 2 actions with chips… then that person shouldn’t be a floorperson”.
206: 32: Dave: “How many of you would be in favor of adopting the WSOP Policy…. I would be in favor of that” ? Vote is taken, Dave responds: “That’s a pretty good group”
206:46: Dave: “But you’d like to see it re-worded so it’s clearer for everyone involved”? “Okay, we are now re-writing the WSOP Rule for SA”.
207:06: Matt “Who cannot live with this” ?
207:57: Linda Johnson: “Reads the WSOP Rule 81 on SA…. [See WSOP Rule 81 below]
209:00: Linda: “Reads the WSOP Rule again, including the preceding language on misdeal conditions”. [See WSOP Rule 81 below]
The above in red from 206:32 on is where the decision was taken to pursue the then existing WSOP rule, which was this:
Rule 81..." Substantial action is considered: three folds, three checks, two or more calls, a fold and a call, or a bet and or a raise or a call and or a fold" You can view the 2011 WSOP Rules here:
http://www.wsop.com/2011/2011-WSOP-RULES.pdfThe above is the
voting decision made as to what direction the Association would take on SA on Day 1. Yes mistakes were made in Version 1.0 of the rules, this is obvious because Version 2.0 would not have otherwise been needed.
After the rule was originally issued in language inconsistent with the WSOP there was a flurry of e-mails received by the TDA pointing out the error. There was also one or more threads on this forum where the issue was discussed, including this important one:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=437.0I would add the worst aspect of the 2011 WSOP Rule was the last section: "....or a bet and or a raise or a call and or a fold..." ..., But very importantly the WSOP Rule 81 verbatim says "a fold and a call" is SA.
After all the e-mails, forum postings, review of the WSOP language, etc. Version 2.0 was released which brought the TDA in alignment with WSOP, which was the objective in the first place, and re-worded the rule in the process to make it clearer.