Nick, thanks alot, replies below....
Asking to see a hand (at least a called hand) has been a basic showdown procedure forever. Exactly when it was changed, I don't know.
Let's look at a couple of written rules currently in effect:
A: From RRoP, Section 3, The Showdown, Rule 5: Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.Note that RRoP uses the term "folded" to apply to a hand discarded at showdown... don't want to make a big deal out of this, I think it's understood he's referring to a "mucked" hand at showdown, but it does raise the question of whether
declaring "fold"
at showdown is binding. If it is, then is any other verbal utterance that definitely would kill a hand during a betting round also kill a hand at the showdown? If so, then we really need to parse language at showdown extremely carefully, yes? and is that what we want to do at showdown... monitor language with the same specificity we use while betting is underway.
Note also if the "winning" surviving player asks to see a non-tabled and mucked hand "both hands are live and the best hand wins"... so the ONLY action that can revive a dead non-tabled hand at showdown is the "winning" player asking to see it, according to this rule, yes?
B: From WSOP 2012 Tournament Rules, #70: At showdown, any Participant at the table may request to see a folded hand from any Participant who has called all bets on the last round of betting. The winning hand must be shown to claim the pot. If a Participant refuses to show their hand and intentionally mucks his or her hand, the Participant in violation will receive a penalty.Note this language also uses the term "fold" to apply to a hand discarded at showdown; raising the same questions as in RRoP. The rule is not clear as to whether a hand previously folded that is shown pursuant to a request by another player is live or dead, nor is a distinction made between whether the person asking to see the hand is the current "winner" or a player who lost.
As far as a showdown situation not involving an all-in, I say a hand is dead once it is surrendered by the owner and is mucked by the dealer. This, of course, will only apply if the hand were not properly tabled.
Those are really two steps to a hand dying: 1) surrendered by the owner and 2) mucked by the dealer.
What if it's surrendered by the owner (a forward face-down toss), but the dealer has not yet touched the cards... can the player change his mind and table them?
Then that raises the question of what is "mucked by dealer"... is that A) irretrievably buried in the muck OR B) merely in possession by the dealer (upon first dealer touch) OR C) tapping the cards to the muck or some other killing ritual?
What is a properly tabled hand? One that is exposed, face-up, for all to see. It is unnecessary to fully release the cards from your hand. The recommended method would be to hold the cards in a manner that secures them, yet they are clearly visible to all. Cards should only be released when a better hand is tabled, or only after the dealer has pushed you the pot!
So that gives us at least 4 definitions of tabling:
Nicks language "exposed face-up for all to see";
FIDPA merely says a tabled hand is a "shown" hand;
WSOP Rule 69 says "A tabled hand is defined as a hand that a Participant places on the table such that the dealer and all Participants at the table can read" (what if I still hold them in my hand but the edges of the cards are touching the table, and the value is unmistakable, have I "placed them on the table"?)
RRoP (Section 3, Showdown, Rule 1): "...show all of his cards faceup on the table..."
TDA rules do not yet formally define tabling but 2 rules come close: Rule 11: "All cards will be turned face up" and Rule 13: "A player must
show all hole cards..."
This might seem like minutiae, but what we want to avoid is giving a protesting player any hole they can find in the rules to kill a better hand at showdown b/c it wasn't formally tabled according to a precise reading of the rules. Clearing this up once and for all is worth discussing.... and while on that seemingly simple topic, clear up: A) when a hand is dead at the showdown; AND B) what the ATSAH rules are.