A TDA member sent in the following question which is probably of interest to alot of people, so posting it here. Please feel free to join the discussion.
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I would like clarification on a situation and how rule 37 applies. Situation: 8 players dealt in preflop, blinds are 600-1200 player A goes all-in for 45k player B puts out 1200. Is player B committed to call the all-in wager at this point or is the 1200 committed and he may elect to fold? I allowed player B to fold and left his 1200 in the pot because my interpretation of rule 37 was that since there was a raise, player B was no longer facing the opening bet (1200), he was facing a new wager therefore my discretion was used as the TD. Would the all-in wager count as a new opening bet and my ruling was incorrect?
Thank You for your time, Name Withheld.
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Hello Name Withheld, and thanks for the great question. We are posting your inquiry anonymously on the Poker TDA Discussion Forum at the following link:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=939.msg8352#msg8352Looks like your decision followed the 2013 TDA Rule 37 to the letter:
A: the opening bet was the 1200 BB.
B: a following bet was made (45k), which as you correctly note is not the opening bet.
C: the next player to act puts out 1200 silently.
D: Per Rule 37: "In all other situations, TD’s discretion applies..."
So, you used your discretion and decided to allow the player to forfeit his undercall and fold his cards, exactly as permitted in your discretion.
Twist the scenario a bit, post-flop, and the first player to bet puts out 45k and the next player puts out 1200. In that case the 45k is the opening bet, and the under-caller will be held to making a full call of 45k per Rule 37: "An undercall... is a mandatory full call if made facing an opening bet multi-way on any betting round, or facing any bet heads up..."
This important rule was adopted after extensive discussion at TDA Summit 37, to fill a gap in the rules regarding when a player must call and when, at TDs discretion, the player may be allowed to leave the undercall in and muck his cards... Thanks for asking for clarification!
Poker TDA Member Support Team
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Thank You for the response. I will be straightening this interpretation out with the rest of management at our property.
They were wanting to commit the player to a full call in every under call situation Thanks again! Name Withheld.
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Name Withheld: your comments in
red above are very interesting.
You actually have the latitude within Rule 37 to commit every undercaller to a full call if your venue decides that's the way you want to handle it. The rule is more intended to focus on when a full call must be made rather than when a player must be given the choice to forfeit and fold.
n fact there is no situation where the player is guaranteed the right to forfeit, such are only at TDs discretion. Most venues do want the latitude to occasionally allow the player to forfeit if it's believed that it was an honest gross mistake, based on some reason such as a preceding (opening) bet in the amount of the undercall....
.... But when someone undercalls and the only bet they are facing is the opening bet (or any heads-up bet), then they should get those calls right, thus be held to mandatory full call, and that's really more the focus of Rule 37.