POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Discussion of Rules by Specific Game Types

Running out of cards in a Stud deal and other Stud irregularities

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K-Lo:
I know the non-NLH games are not currently a priority, but I have a suggestion for some rule changes:

1. Currently in Stud games, if it appears that the dealer does not have enough cards to deal a card to each player, e.g. on seventh street, there is quite a complicated procedure where dealers must deal to the last card, do a reshuffle of certain cards, cut or no cut, and then deal out cards to remaining players UNLESS there still wouldn't be enough cards to complete the deal in which case a community card is used.

My suggestion is that, for simplicity, prior to dealing a street, if the dealer does not have enough cards to deal each player a card from the existing stub, then a community card is automatically used for that street.  No reshuffling.  

2. Currently, if on the last street a card that should have been dealt face down has been dealt face up by mistake through dealer error, different approaches are used.  Some differ depending on whether the action is heads-up or multi-way.  Other approaches depend on whether the first player was dealt a card face up mistake (as opposed to a later player receiving a face up card); sometimes a player has the option of being all-in for existing bets, while other times all remaining cards are also dealt face up.

My suggestion is that, for simplicity, if any seventh street card is dealt face up by accident to any player, then all seventh street cards will be turned face up, and betting will proceed as normal.  The only exception (which is the rarer situation since the more common situation is that the first person receives an upcard by mistake, which would fall under the main rule) would be is that if a card was dealt face down and mixed in with a player's existing hole cards such that if the seventh street card is no longer clearly identifiable, then that player (with the unexposed downcard) will be deemed to be all-in for existing bets.

Nick C:
Hello Ken,

 I understand most of the inconsistency that exists in the current rules for card shortages in stud. A couple facts I'd like to clarify for those that are not that familiar with seven card stud. The dealer must always be aware of a hand playing out with a full table of players still remaining. I like to teach student dealers to count the number of players before burning and turning, especially on sixth or seventh street. In order to assure that there will be no shortage of cards on a particular street. There must be at least two more cards remaining in the deck stub, than players. Six players...eight cards. This, of course, will allow for a burn card and one remaining unused card. The old rules would tell us to never use the bottom card of the deck.

 Local casinos are in favor of using a "community card" when it is obvious that the stub does not contain enough cards to complete a round of dealing. This will only apply on seventh street. The alternative, in certain situations, is to include the burn cards along with the short deck stub, when possible. This of course will take a little more time and that's probably the main reason why most casinos frown on it, and prefer a community card. It has been my experience that the shortage almost always happens when the early rounds are checked, or minimal action has occurred, thus the remaining players. There are other situations when a complete street is removed because of a premature deal, but that could be a subject for a later discussion. :-X

 I'm not sure what kind of a change you're looking for. Once a player receives a down card and the next player (through dealer error) has his rivercard exposed, it's usually impossible to ask the first player to turn his up.

 The way I see it: On seventh street: If there are not enough cards to complete the deal by adding the "clean" burncards to the deck stub...use a community card.

 As far as the mistake of the dealer, accidentally turning the first players rivercard up instead of down, well, I always thought that could use some work too. If the dealer is going to make a mistake on the rivercard, the first card off, after the burn, is when it will occur. I actually prefer offering an option to the player with the exposed card. I'd even prefer that when the first player accidently has his rivercard exposed. In other words; dealer burns and turns the one-seat's river card face-up (hopefully by mistake)...I'd prefer that he continue dealing the other players their rivercard down. I know that's not the rule, but that's what I'd prefer. Head to head adds to the complexities, as Ken mentioned.

 I don't know if I'd be in favor of automatically declaring the player that received his downcard and it is intermingled with his other holecards, all-in. I'd prefer giving the option to the player or players with the exposed hand.

 I don't know if I answered any of your question, but I thought I'd try to explain what I remember from those good old stud games, from years gone by. ;D

K-Lo:
Thanks for your response, Nick.  You may some good points.

For the record, I am one of the (perhaps) few that do not favor re-introducing burn cards into play.  First, the rules between draw games and stud games and whether burn cards should be reshuffled in are not consistent.  That's not helpful.  But the bigger issue for me is game integrity.  I think there's a much higher chance that the identity of a burn card could become exposed, since it is not in the direct control of any player or the dealer, and it is easy for dealers to forget to burn the cards in a manner that minimizes their chance of becoming exposed.  It's not a huge issue, but I think burncards should remained burnt, just as mucked cards should remain mucked. 

That's why I prefer... just count the cards in the stub, and if there is not enough to burn and deal a card to each player, just use a community card.  I would not object to even using the last card of the stub (which is not traditionally done), although it would certainly be safer not to count that card either. 


--- Quote from: Nick C on April 15, 2015, 11:44:24 AM ---
If there are not enough cards to complete the deal by adding the "clean" burncards to the deck stub...use a community card.


--- End quote ---

Nick C:
Ken,

 While we're on the subject of seven card stud, please don't tell me they still use this rule: When a community card is used, the player that was high on sixth street, is first to act on seventh street. ::)
That one always baffled me. I think I read (somewhere) that they no longer use that rule, but I'm not sure.

 As far as worrying about the burncards being unseen, I guess we have to teach the dealers the importance of keeping the burn, clean and separate from the muck...especially in stud.

K-Lo:
I think they still use that rule. But that's a good point.  You think it should be someone else?  Whoever has the best board showing that includes the community card?

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