Forward motion of cards or chips

[Guillaume Gleize]

Hello,
I know that these situations are not simple, cannot be translated into clear rules and require human intervention (which justifies our floor manager salaries lol),
But is there finally a general consensus on these two cases:
1) A player pushes his cards slightly forward on the table while leaving his hand on them > Fold or not? Should we measure the distance in inches?
2) A player advances his hand slightly forward while holding chips but without touching the table and without letting them go > Bet or not? Same question of distance?
Thanks in advance! GG

[Nick C]

Hello Guillaume
The situations you discribe are very common. I believe the important duty of the floor, is to determine the intent of the player.

Whenever you are an active player there are responsibilities that you must follow to avoid confusion. Your cards must be protected yet clearly visible to all players. Cards should always be face down on the table for all to see. Never hidden or concealed, or lifted off the table. Small card ornaments are usually allowed, but the easiest way to protect your cards is to have one hand covering, or holding the cards in a manner that would prevent the cards from accidently being swept away by the dealer.

Your players must be forewarned that forward motion of cards, when your turn to act, may indicate an intent to fold, or a surrender of your hand. If your intent were to call a bet, would you push your cards forward? Of course not! If your intent were to not bet or raise would you grab your chips and make like you are going to bet? Of course not...unless your intent was to mislead or get a reaction from the next player. This is the problem, and it must be corrected.

Instruct your players, and dealers, that cards should always be face down and protected until the player decides to surrender the hand by pushing it forward.
 
How far forward is one of your questions.

Pushing your cards forward on your turn to act is a clear indication that you are surrendering your hand and have no interest in the pot! It's that simple. Any other reason can only be interpreted as a deceptive action and must be discouraged.

Players who do not follow these simple rules may risk the unintentional surrender of their hand!

Pushing chips forward, without the intent to bet or raise is clearly a disruptive practice that can only cause problems. Why would any player pick up chips and make a move forward, or push chips forward without the intent to bet? It makes no sense unless they are trying to "get a reaction" from another player. This is unacceptable and can only be resolved by stern warning.

A good analogy might be learned from chess masters..."touch move" If you touch a piece, you must move that piece! You can not touch a rook and then decide to move your queen!

Think before you act!

In my estimation, any forward movement of chips, even an inch, indicates the players intent to bet. Likewise, any forward motion of cards would indicate that the player is surrendering the hand.

A betting line can be helpful, but I know there are many who do not like using a line. I am greatly in favor of a line.

I know this is a long answer to your questions, but if you follow the basic common sense thought process, I think you will be able to train your players and dealers to stop these bad practices.

[Guillaume Gleize]

TY for the answer.
About the #2 > So what? Call? Min raise? (We don't know the amount of chips in the hand 'cause the chips are mixed back to the player stacks)?

[Nick C]

I attempted to highlight "Make your intentions clear,' but for some reason...I was unable to.
The TDA Rules may seem a bit vague, but they do cover these situations:

2:  Player Responsibilities

Players should verify registration data and seat assignments, verify they’re dealt the correct number of cards before SA occurs, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn with proper terminology and gestures, defend their right to act, keep cards visible and chips correctly stacked, remain at the table with a live hand, table all cards properly when competing at showdown, speak up if they see a mistake, play in a timely manner, call for a clock when warranted, transfer tables promptly, follow one player to a hand, know and comply with the rules, practice proper etiquette, inform the house if they see or experience discriminatory or offensive behavior, and generally contribute to an orderly event where all players feel welcome.

Every situation is different. If the player is first to ack and moves chips forward, I would consider the action an intent to bet. If the player refuses, I would insist on a min bet. If they did not want to bet, or their intent was to bet more, perhaps they will learn a lesson and announce the amount before moving chips forward. The important issue that you face as a floorperson is to assure that the integrity of the game is secure and players are protected from unethical players. You don't need them in your cardroom.

[Ralf009]

Hi Guys, this looks like the most recent topic regarding forward motion so i'm going to ask my question here. We have a poker club, all self deal events, buyins €25 to  €50, fields between 100 and 300 entries to give you an idea what were doing.

We have a player who has been caught doing the following multiple times (in different events): On the river when he is heads up he takes all of his remaining chips clearly moving them forward in his hand across the betting line and than when he notices his opponent reaching for chips or even saying call in one case he rethinks his actions and takes his chips back.

Where would you guys draw the line regarding what is allowed and what not? and what kind of penalty would be given ?

In another case the player is also heads up on the river and he says "all-in?" telling us it was his goal to ask if the player would go all-in... only did the other player not receive it as a question but as an actual declaration of all-in and snapcalls with the nuts. Rest of the table heard the words all-in as well and he just claimed it was all-in? as a question? ever had this case happen? As floor in this case i couldn't do anything since they called me to the table while all cards were already discarded and neither of the 2 players actually tabled their hand. So the 2nd person just took the pot and agreed not to get the remaining chips of the other player

[Dave Miller]

Ralf -
You could have started a new thread, but whatever.


For the first case, some card rooms have a rule that any chips that cross the line, or go forward past the cards when there is no line, is the bet. I assume you don’t have that rule.

Without that rule, I would say that forward motion with chips indicates an intended bet. Bringing all the chips back forces a minimum bet. Not sure what kind of warning or penalty should be given.

Remind the other player, and the rest of the table, “and that’s why we don’t take action until the prior players action is complete.”


For your second case, I would say that “all in? (question)” can be interpreted as “I’m going all in. You gonna call?” It’s still a question, and would rule it as an all in. Anything else would be angle shooting or trying to get a read, etc.

I will give a penalty to both players, as well as write up to the Dealer for allowing a pot to be awarded when there was a discrepancy that the floor has not had a chance to take a look at.