POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General

4 burn cards again!

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Guillaume Gleize:
Hello,
This one is hard and really happened!
Final heads up > All-in & call > The Dealer reveals the full board (the all-in player double up).
BUT > Before giving the pot to anybody, he and the full table and the spectators realize that 4 cards had been burned!

The burned cards was on the side and in order of arrival (like the board) but NO WAY to know if the double burned was before the flop, the turn or the river!
Because of the very numerous mathematical solutions : I choose to cancel the hand! I know the TDA rules but didn't know how to apply them here? Any idea?

PS > Please only solutions > No lessons on how to manage dealers etc.
TY in advance - GG

Nick C:
Hello, Guillaume...

I have a couple questions that I'd like to ask you before I tell you what I would have done.

First of all, if your players were okay with your decision, it was the right thing to do.

Consider this: If the two remaining players acted after the final board card (the river) was on the table, I would have considered substantial action and the hand would play.

However, In your situation, I believe the all in occurred earlier in the hand, therefore I could agree with your call to redeal the hand.

Guillaume Gleize:
Hello Nick,

First thank you for your answer.
Then for sure if I did post that case here it's because I don't pretend at all my ruling to be the "good" one. But TY for the kind words.

OK > Both players went all-in & call preflop: That is BEFORE any card on the board.

Guillaume Gleize:
It was the final heads-up of a qualifying tournament for a €500 place.
The 4 burned cards were located on the side, in their order of arrival, and the entire board (flop+turn+river) in front of the dealer.

The only sure thing was that the dealer had burned two cards instead of one at one point, but no one knew if that was before the flop, before the turn or before the river.
After some long reflections and having listened to a lot of people, it seem to me that reconstituting a board, even following the lines of the TDA, was too complex, "messy" and random and could have given rise to disagreements. I was also lucky that this "bad" board had not eliminated the short stack (it would have doubled). So my cancellation was better accepted.

But I have a second solution in mind (following the TDA rules as closely as possible): The only safe cards were the first two of the flop (whether the dealer burned 1 or 2 cards) and the only one to remove was the river (since it represented a 9th and last card which should never have arrived on the table).

So maybe I could have:
1) Leave the first two cards of the flop,
2) Remove the river,
3) Mix the other 6 cards together and reconstitute: burned, 3rd of the flop, burned, turn, burned and river.

 ::)

Dave Miller:
Buckle up. Long post coming.

I think cancelling the hand is not the right thing to do. Doing so is equivalent to a misdeal, which clearly did not happen. However, since both players were OK with it, so am I - assuming that the 'heads up' you mentioned meant the final two players in the tournament, not merely the only two players in the hand.

I also think your final idea of "Leave the first two cards of the flop and scramble the rest" is wrong for several reasons.

A solution you didn't mention, but might have considered, would be to take all nine cards, and reshuffle them into the stub and put out an entirely new board. I'm against that solution as well.


Several things to consider.

On a four card flop, in Rule 39, we ignore the possibility of 'knowing' which two are intended to be part of the flop, and scramble all four.

Similarly in Rule 39, a flop without a burn gets all three scrambled, with one card removed for the burn.

So, based on that, I'd take all nine cards, scramble them, and put out a new board with burns and one card left over.

Except in the no burn part of Rule 39, it says if there is any action, including a check, the flop stands.

But the players were all in pre-flop. What 'action' could there have been?

Last, Rule 38 and Procedure 14 says burn cards are to protect the stub, and NOT to 'preserve the order'. I.E. Random is random.


In other words, the cards that were face up were just as randomly likely to be the actual board as the 'intended' board cards, and therefore the hand should stand. That's the way I would have ruled.


OK. Maybe that long post wasn't as long as some of my other posts.   ;D

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