Mike, This is how I feel these situations should be handled.
You wrote:
"For me it's most interesting to discuss individual house policies here because not all of Tristan's example (or any example) is fully covered by TDA at this point."
To summarize Tristan's example: A bets, B and C call, B shows a straight, A releases his cards face down towards center table but still identifiable, and C who retains his cards asks to see A's hand. So this involves a lot of issues. Any player that releases his or her hand has no right to the pot! If cards were not properly tabled, the hand is dead.
Nick, thanks for taking the time to go through these situations one-by-one.... So it seems from answer above that you have a forward motion / mucking line rule at showdown that says if an untabled hand is released forward at showdown it is instantly dead and even if identifiable it's owner cannot then table it. This is covered by TDA Rule 14-B. Also important, what if when it's my turn to show I still have my cards (but haven't tabled them) BUT I say something acknowledging defeat such as "I fold" or "you win" or "take it", will that also instantly kill my un-tabled hand under your house rules, or can I change my mind and still table my cards in my possession after declaring that my hand is a loser?
#1: Does C have a right or a privilege to ask to see A's hand. It's not a written TDA rule, but all the dialogue at Summit VI confirms that C has an inalienable right to ask to see the hand he called on the final street, so no debate there. BUT... According to Webster's Dictionary; a privilege is not different from a right. The noun right is described as; that which is just, morally good, legal, proper, or fitting.
Okay, so what's being discussed here are two possibilities: a non-revokable or inalienable right,
versus a revokable or deniable right that can be granted or denied at TD's discretion (that's what is called a "privilege", though privilege may not be the best term...). So, in this circumstance player C asks to see A's hand, the last aggressive hand on the river. Does C have a non-revokable or revokable right to see the cards under this circumstance at your venue?
#2: A has released his cards, so if they are turned up here are they live or dead? They are not live if they were surrendered by the owner. This is very basic poker...Player's must protect their own hand! Intentionally mucking your hand is the action of a player having no interest in competing for the pot.
So again, you confirm that you have a mucking line or forward motion rule at showdown, yes? Push your non-tabled cards forward and they are instantly dead at your house, even if within reach of the player who otherwise could reach out and table them, yes?
Per RRoP they are clearly dead, [unless Player C has a stronger hand than B]. However, many but not a super-majority of TDA members at Summit VI think all cards tabled at showdown should be live.... The TDA does not take a position on this as of yet. What's is everyone's house rule here? In my opinion the TDA is sending mixed signals. We need to clearly define the proper procedure that must be followed at every showdown. Think about our discussion?...currently, we can make any ruling that we want. The hand is ruled dead if surrendered, or it can be deemed live if the TD wants to see it! (I won't even get into who is going to turn over the released hand, that's another sore spot for me).
Well, currently you can make any ruling that your
house rules permit. The TDA does recognize some variance in house rules on the matter of whether forward motion instantly kills a hand, and whether all hands tabled at showdown by whatever means are live, or only certain hands are live. Until a super-majority of the "poker world" comes to a consensus on this, the TDA must recognize these variances, no? It's not the TDA saying "do whatever you want", it's the fact that a consensus has not yet been reached, so until that time house rules still do apply in certain situations, hence this discussion.
#3: Add another dimension, what if C has turned up a lesser hand than B? So you have a known loser asking to see the discarded hand of the last aggressor, a hand he has an inalienable right to see... does this affect whether A's hand is live or dead per your house rules? RRoP again is clear that the hand is dead because it was discarded AND being shown at the request of a known loser. The key here is "requests to see the discarded hand of the last aggressor." If Player A did not release his hand, it should be turned over by the owner of the hand. He must turn over the hand, or surrender it to the muck. This is why it is so important for the proper order of showdown to be followed. If Player A releases his hand, the order of showdown commences in clockwise fashion. The dealer will read each exposed hand...muck the loser and award the pot to the winner. At this time, the request to see the mucked hand will be carried out.
Okay, so per your house rules A's hand is dead in this situation.... What if C turned up a better hand than B, are A's cards still dead or are they live then?
#4: Yet another dimension... it's checked around on the river. So B shows a straight, A discards, and C who retains his cards asks to see A's hand. A was not the last aggressor in this example, so do you show his cards? On a checked round, Player A is responsible to show first, just as if he initiated a bet. His first action of "check" does not change his obligation of "first to show." The only exception is if there is a house rule that insists on the last aggressor, (from a previous round) acts first. By right or privilege? We are confusing the issue with "right" or "privilege" If by privilege how do you decide when to and when not to show? We must follow "order of showdown." Will you accommodate the first few requests then consider it an etiquette violation? If the same players are obviously abusing their right to see a called hand, that privilege may, and should be taken away from any player deliberately using the request as a form of irritation.
Okay, several things here:
i: "...obviously abusing their right to see a called hand..." An inalienable right can't be "abused", you always have it. Whereas a revokable right (which I call a privilege but perhaps that's not the best term) can be denied. If we're talking about a called hand of the last aggressor on the river, do you show that always to any requesting caller, or only if you think they aren't abusing a revokable privilege?
ii: it also seems that your house rule is that for every showdown, the order of show must be followed, rather than permitting spontaneous tabling and mucking, yes?
[/color] Or will you only grant the privilege if you suspect collusion or? I am against asking to see any hand because you suspect collusion.
So under your house rules, it sounds like:
i: even if I called the last aggressor on the river, I don't have an inalienable right to see his cards on request, because if I abuse this request you may deny it...
ii: you won't grant a request to see a hand based on a stated suspicion of collusion...
So the question returns to under what conditions for your house rules does a player have an inalienable (irrevokable) right to see a hand on request, and when do they have only a deniable or revokable privilege at your discretion?
Are A's cards live or dead in this variation? Let's go back to the proper order of showdown. If Player C turned his hand first, the dealer should request that Player A show his hand, If he shows and has the best hand, he wins! If Player B is still in the hand, it now depends on what action Player A takes; If Player A mucks...he loses and his hand will be exposed after Player B takes in the pot.
Okay, so again you have a forward motion rule to kill A's hand, and B (the presumptive winner) didn't ask to see A's hand (C, the loser did), so this is a form of a forward motion rule plus RRoP "if the loser asks to see the discarded hand it is dead")...
BUT, what if C, the requesting player, has a better hand than B.... A has mucked.... and after you push the pot towards C you discover that A had a better hand than C... do you still award to C because A voluntarily discarded his hand? OR do you award to A because C (the presumptive winner) asked to see A's discarded hand and it's live if the presumptive winner asks to see it?
Here's my summary understanding of your house rules, LMK if the following is accurate:
1. Every showdown should follow the order of show. Each player in turn may choose to table or to discard. IF they discard, their hand is immediately dead by forward motion.
2. If any player at the showdown asks to see a discarded hand, the house may or may not grant the request. The house reserves the right to deny any request, including the request by a player who called the discarded hand of the last aggressor on the river.
3. The only live cards at showdown are cards tabled in turn, by their owners, during the order of show.
Is that an accurate summary or?