A 400
B all in 500
C all in 700
D raises to 1200 (a raise of 500?)
Does the next player need to raise by at least 500, or by at least 800?
Well this is exactly the predicament
Nick thinks it was a raise of 800 and Bill thinks its a raise of 500
I wanna know whats right?!?!?
Brooks,
Here is how I analyze your scenario:
Player A: Made an opening bet for 400.
This establishes the legal size of a full raise as 400.
Player B: Made an all-in wager for 500.
This raise of 100 is short of the full raise amount. Short raises are only allowed when a player is all-in.
There is now 900 in the pot.
Player C: Made an all-in wager for 700.
This raise of 200 is short of the full raise amount. The short raise is allowed as the player is all-in.
There is now 1100 in the pot.
Player D: Makes the 1200 bet. That is a full raise of 500.
The 500 raise is larger than the previous legal raise of 400, so now 500 is the legal full raise.
There is now 1600 in the pot.
Player A: Is facing a bet of 1200.
The largest bet or raise at the time that Player A had last acted was 400.
Player A is facing a bet that is a full raise over their last bet. Therefore, betting is reopened.
Player A can fold.
Or, player A can call the 1200 by adding another 800 to the previous 400 bet.
Or, player A can raise by calling the 1200 and raising at least 500 more.
A minimum full raise bet would be 1700, which is 1300 more that the original 400 bet.
What if combined, the 2 short all ins equaled a full raise?
A bets 400
B all in 650
C all in 850
D
combined, these 2 all ins have made a full raise
Does that mean that D needs to raise by at least 450, or since no "legal" raise has happened yet, D needs to raise by at least 400 - the last legal bet?
Whatever we decide D's options are, they should be the same for A if D calls.
Brooks,
Here is how I analyze your scenario:
Player A: Made an opening bet for 400.
This establishes the legal size of a full raise as 400.
Player B: Made an all-in wager for 650.
This raise of 250 is short of the full raise amount. Short raises are only allowed when a player is all-in.
There is now 650 in the pot.
Player C: Made an all-in wager for 850.
This raise of 200 is short of the full raise amount. The short raise is allowed as the player is all-in.
There is now 850 in the pot.
Player D: Hasn't acted previously and can fold, call, or raise.
To make a call is 850.
To make a raise is a minimum of 1250. The 850 calling amount, plus a full raise of 400.
Player A: If player D folded, player A would be facing a bet of 850.
If player D min-raise to 1250, player A would be facing a bet of 1250.
If player D could have raise to a larger amount, like 1500.
If player A is facing a bet of 850 or 1250, betting is reopened and the legal raise amount is still 400. (see analysis above)
If player A is facing a bet of 1500, then Player D also changed the legal full raise amount to 650. Etc.,
[/quote]
We said wayyyy back in the beginning of this thread, that if D calls, then A would have to raise by 450.
So if that is the case, then why would it be any different for D?
That was incorrect, player A would need to raise only 400 - not 450.
There has to be an answer somewhere?!?!
The answer is above.
TDA only talks about multiple short all ins in regards to the betting being reopened. There is no mention of what the next min raise should be
This is because they are two separate issues. Short raises (only possible when all-in) do not affect the size of a legal minimum full raise. See my other posts. Short all-ins might only effect the reopening a betting.
Some may wonder why TDA Rule #48 Re-Opening the Bet, allows for short all-in wagers to accumulate into a total bet that is tantamount to a full raise. But yet, the short all-in wagers do not accumulate with the previous bet or raise in a way that increases the minimum raise amount. I think this make perfect sense, but yet I see others have trouble separating this two issues. Here is my simple reasoning.
Player A: Opens for 200.
Player B: Calls 200.
Player C: Raises 200 to 400.
Player D: Raises 200 to 600.
Player E:
What is the minimum raise amount to Player E? Why of course, it is still 200. The raises by C and D increase the total bet but not affect the legal raise amount. This is common knowledge and nobody disputes it. So, why then is the following disputed?
Player A: Opens for 200.
Player B: Calls 200.
Player C: All-in for 350. A short raise of 150.
Player D: All-in for 500. Another short raise of 150.
Player E:
What is the minimum amount that E can raise? Clearly, it is not 500, nor 350, nor 300. It is still 200.