Here's a discussion we've been having on the staff section of our group. I thought I understood the rulings, but now I've ingested too much information. There's also some confusion as to whether an undercall must complete a call/raise. From what I'm reading, there seems to be some discrepancy between Robert's Rules and the TDA amendments on that one.
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Hey everyone! I was asked if a player can pull his/her chips back when they didn't know there was a raise in front of them or if they had to complete the raise and wanted to post the correct answer here so we are all on the same page. -- Roberts Rules states: A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action. However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you.
Crystal Cash Thank you.
Lacy Maci However........Unless you have in head phones or talking constantly and not paying any attention and the dealer announced the raise....Then, I make the bet stand and they leave those chips in and may call or fold their cards. That stops the inattention or it is constant inattention.
Nathan Proctor I tend to make an empty threat that they'll have to leave those chips out there next time unless they're habitual offenders, like Maci said; to "remind" them to pay attention.
Crystal Cash
Side note: IF you verbalize your action, you ARE calling regardless of whether you know that there was a raise or not.
Nathan Proctor
Verbal is binding.....always.
Crystal Cash
Some people have told me (after saying 'Call') that they didn't know that there was a raise and so they should be able to take it back... Negative.
Lacy Maci
Absolutely
Lacy Maci
But just be certain the dealer has said raise. We are tough but fair.
Wendy C. Davidson
Here is another part of the rules... A little below the ruling that Erin stated. The only problem is that it does not specifically state what happens if there as already been a raise... Does the player then have to be required to call said original raise or does the player now have to actually make a re-raise? As I read and understand it, if there is at least half of what the original raise was, the player must complete to the original raise amount.
Robert Keller
along these lines, What is the rule if a player places a gray chip thinking it is a black? It was 200 to him and he put out one black and one gray
Nathan Proctor
Wendy: 50% of a raise must be completed. Similar to if a player isn't aware that there's already been a raise and announces "raise". They must make a minimum raise.
Robert: Multiple Chip Betting
When facing a bet, unless a raise is declared first, a multiple-chip bet is a call if there is not one
chip that can be removed and still leave at least the call amount. Example: preflop, 200-400
blinds: A raises to 1200 total (an 800 raise), B puts out two 1000 chips without declaring raise.
This is just a call because removing one 1000 chip leaves less than the amount to call (1200). If
the single removal of any one chip leaves the call amount or more, the bet is governed by the
50% standard in Rule 41.
Nathan Proctor
So, since removing the 1k chip leaves less than the 200 call, it's just a call.
Jeremiah Harwell
Think you might be misenterpretting that rule Weenie, or applying it to the wrong scenario. Robert says the bet is 200, player puts out 1100. He raised to 1100.
Nathan Proctor
I was thinking the same thing but according to the wording above, unless it only applies to two chips of the same denomination, it appears to be just a call.
Nathan Proctor
Although personally, I prefer to call it a raise to 1100.
Jeremiah Harwell
That's obv the wrong wording or scenario. That would also apply if the bet was 200 and a player out out a 500 and 100 chip. Still a 600 raise.
Nathan Proctor
Actually, since either the 500 or the 1000 chip is enough to cover a call, it's a legit raise.
Again, unless I'm reading it wrong.
Nathan Proctor
Oops, I did read yours wrong.
Nathan Proctor
Still, according to the wording, it says that's still just a call.
Nathan Proctor
I really feel like I'm misinterpreting this somehow. I'll have to read it when I'm better rested.
Jeremiah Harwell
What's the source? In Roberts scenario, the 100 chip could be "removed" and the bet is still covered. Obvious raise.
Nathan Proctor
It says if "either" is removed.
he source is the latest amendments from the Tournament Directors Association which is where Roberts defers to in matters of tournament play.
I'm trying to find something specific in Robert's Rules.
Wendy C. Davidson
Ok so I'm confused.... Per the multiple chip betting rule Nathan posted... 1). It does not use the word "either", it says "if not one chip can be removed"... That doesn't mean either, that means there could be a specific one. 2). The example used in the rule... If the blinds are 200-400 and a raise of 1200 was placed ( being a raise of 800, 400 + 800), then why is it a call if a player throws out 2 chips worth 1000? This is a raise don't you think? It's the now call of 1200 plus another 800 raise. The 2000 raises the exact amount of what the first raise amount of 800 was. Here is another example. If the blinds are 300-600, and someone throws out 3 yellow chips (500's) meaning to raise to 1500 without saying anything, then according to this rule it's only a raise of 1200 since removing one yellow chip would leave just over 50% (specifically 66.66%)of what the raise should be, then requiring the raise to only be a min raise.
Nathan Proctor
Thank you. I knew I was too tired last night.
Nathan Proctor
Btw, there is a 1 chip rule and a 2 chip rule, not a 3 chip rule....yet.
Wendy C. Davidson
It says "multiple" chip rule... It does not say 2-chip rule. Multiple means "more than one", it does not mean just 2.
Jeremiah Harwell
So, pretty much I was right the whole time. Lol
Nathan Proctor
All right, that's it. I'm going to have go to the top of the food chain and ask the professionals at the TDA. I'll post all this of their forum and get classification once and for all.
(Shut up Jeremiah. No one likes a sore winner. Especially when I'm wrong.)